#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Gurgeh]

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

...

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

Agreed 100%. They need to start making healing a painful DPS loss for tanks. PLD always had a good heal, but even in casual it wasn't used heavily because it was considered uncool, to stand there Infront of everyone and your healer, healing yourself not even getting your combos out. (Also your MP will dry up).

[TheDustyOne]

I've seen a few more people nowadays arguing against Clemency, and I can kinda get why, especially with how much tanks have been encroaching on healing, but I'd argue that it's not Clemency that's the problem, but instead the free heals from Holy Spirit and blades combo.

Clemency typically had a large DPS loss associated; eating into req time/stacks, eating MP that needed to be saved for Holy Spirit, breaking combo, etc. With EW, Holy Spirit cost less MP, so there was room to cast a Clemency or 2 without delaying the next Req window and it stopped interrupting combos. This is where it went from being risky to use and only for emergencies to something that's still emergency focused, but less punishing. Come 6.3 rework, the change in rotation made it even less punishing to use it unless you had to use it during Requiescat. Clemency still has some DPS cost nowadays, it's just not as much as it used to be. Increase the MP cost of divine spells, reduce the amount of MP we restore throughout the rotation and I think it'd be fine.

Holy Spirit and blades on the other hand, that's where it straight up wasn't necessary; Practically 2 uses of Clemency for free every minute with no loss of DPS. Add in Holy Sheltron, and that's another free Clemency every 20s or so. Remove the heals from the rest of Divine spells, and honestly it'd be fine. Holy Sheltron could also be looked at, but that's true of all of the tanks buffed 82 mitigations.

[Rithy255]

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

[Supersnow845]

No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I've seen a few more people nowadays arguing against Clemency, and I can kinda get why, especially with how much tanks have been encroaching on healing, but I'd argue that it's not Clemency that's the problem, but instead the free heals from Holy Spirit and blades combo[...]

Funny how this phenomena had their healer analogue: people p!ssing their pants when required to GCD heal and calls for a "Trashologification" of their healing approach so they can all freely weave/do lossless healing by sheer amount.

[Rithy255]

The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

Do you really think healer would be anymore fun then if encounters were kept the same but we just removed "free sustain" on tanks, I really do not see how throwing a extra ogcd heal or two to replace a tanks sustain would honestly make healer anymore fun for you.

You maybe complacent with fights having very low damage profiles and tanks having absurd Mitigation value, but I'm not I want fights to actually make me use my cooldowns to the point where aurora and HOC isn't just enough to sustain throughout a entire fight.

Honestly I find this absurd we're blaming tanks like gunbreaker for having sustain tools as if this is the root issue with healer (and tank) design is obviously the encounter design with some exceptions such as warrior having way too much and gnb/pld can use some toned down in some areas without just "yeah remove it lol"

It feels like it must be this lose/lose situation where you either keep sustain on tanks and healers stay unfun, or you remove it on healers and healers become fun while tanks become less fun to play, In reality both Healers and Tanks should be improved it should be a win/win scenario, we should be wanting for fights to actually make use of our kits and even trim some of the bloat on both of our kits to actually make these "free cooldowns, mits, heals ect." becomes resources that we should be using wisely.

If you think aurora is enough to replace your entire role... maybe just maybe theirs a issue in encounter design... I wouldn't know I'm not a expert but I think just maybe that wouldn't actually be a issue with tanks and more of a issue with how fights are designed.

[Azurarok]

Also GNB was added on the patch that started the current problems with the roles so Aurora isn't really off the hook either.

Like it doesn't have to be in the form of stances either. Trading off the role's primary task with dps is something healers technically still do, even without Cleric Stance.
I'm not sure about enmity management but as far as self-sustain/mitigation goes, if tanks also took that route back in SB or ShB it could've left room for a healer to focus on healing while a tank could focus on dps and vice-versa, and maybe the roles would've been in a healthier state.

[Rithy255]

Also GNB was added on the patch that started the current problems with the roles so Aurora isn't really off the hook either.

Like it doesn't have to be in the form of stances either. Trading off the role's primary task with dps is something healers technically still do, even without Cleric Stance.
I'm not sure about enmity management but as far as self-sustain/mitigation goes, if tanks also took that route back in SB or ShB it could've left room for a healer to focus on healing while a tank could focus on dps and vice-versa, and maybe the roles would've been in a healthier state.

Yeah because a one minute cooldown that is a weak regen is Really unhealthy for the game lol.

as a tank i now demand you have zero mitigations on healer or DPS, How dare Healers have stuff like aqua veil, how dare samurais have third eye thats my job and they do it for free, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation!

No, again one or two heal cooldowns SHOULD NOT REPLACE YOUR ENTIRE ROLE. Again I'll have to say this for the 100th time if aurora can replace a healer then what even is the point of having healers... to throw in one ogcd single target heal on the tank???????

Free healing cooldowns is fine it's the amount, how is this controversial to even say, is it some weird healer pride thing where they get mad another job can help sustain someone a little bit?

[Azurarok]

Have I said it should be zero?? I'm saying it shouldn't be free. You're correct, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation and some healing. SCH's Sacred Soil does this. WHM used to have Protect and Stone Skin as casted spells. It was the norm for WHM and SCH even in ShB where you usually had to sacrifice damage to gain weave space and mobility. Tanks should also be in this same boat

[Rithy255]

Have I said it should be zero?? I'm saying it shouldn't be free. You're correct, healers should lose out on damage if they want to use mitigation and some healing. SCH's Sacred Soil does this. WHM used to have Protect and Stone Skin as casted spells. It was the norm for WHM and SCH even in ShB where you usually had to sacrifice damage to gain weave space and mobility. Tanks should also be in this same boat

I was mostly just comparing how it sounds when people say tanks shouldn't have any healing when saying healers should lose out on damage to mitigate, though if we want to give tanks the treatment of they can't use any healing unless they sacrifice damage I think it's only fair.

I disagree that you can't have some free cooldowns, the point is having a limited amount so that you can't just use your resources without thinking, even in dungeons i want healers and tanks to be rewarded for using their cooldowns in synergy which in return would save healers from having to gcd heal as much (which they don't at all in current content). I don't see any issue and I mean this sincerely. I think the cost to having "free cooldowns" is that you have to actually use them up at the correct time for good trade-off value.

I think (and I hope) is what we want is the same thing at the core of this issue I want tanks and healers to actually feel important and work together, I just in a different light don't think it's fully a issue with free cooldowns, it's more the fact that these cooldowns are "free" because we have so much on healers/tanks theirs never a big risk of running out or messing up with incorrect use.

as a side note I did prefer the longer cast time on healers back in SHB, Whm was still massively UP in comparison but i feel like that mobility and planning around it is one thing more lost on healers due to how much free movement options they have now and less cast times obviously.