#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[YarnMage48]

I replied to your discussion of their offensive place in single-target combat. Of those, only Dosis III and Eukrasian Dosis III are relevant, and are analogous to any other filler-DoT pair.

But by all means, let's run your example through more broadly.

Your means of performing your GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 5 keys (Dosis, Dykrasis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia).
SCH's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 6 keys (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Adloquiem, Succor, Physick), of which only 5 keys are actually used.
WHM's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Glare, Dia, Holy, Cure II, Regen, Medica, Medica II), of which only 6 keys are actually used.
AST's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Malefic, Combust, Gravity, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helix, Aspected Helix), of which only 5 keys are generally used.

So its savings relative to other kit designs are, in effect... 1 in 32 keys.

And I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated after so many times, but since you're seemingly continuing to interpret critiques of healer same-ish-ness as if said critiques disliked what little distinction exists...

...none of this is to say that Eukrasia is bad. It simply happens to be laughable to say that hitting your DoT once per 30 seconds on SGE feels different just because you hit [2]->[1] instead of the normal [1] instead of just hitting [2] instead of [1] or that hitting your STHeal+ GCD feels different from AST hitting its STHeal+ GCD just because you hit [2]->[3] instead of just [3], etc., let alone that those fractional changes actually allow SGE gameplay to feel distinct from SCH (or even the broader basic healer template altogether).

I.e., that Sage's uniqueness could have been, was implied to be, and should have been far more than what we got.

And people trying to, say, put an [obligatory 1s GCD + 1.5s GCD pair] on a pedestal as if it were sufficiently unique from any [2.5s GCD with identical control and considerations] to make its job feel truly distinct... only makes it harder to get there.

Look mate. I said that Eukrasia reduces the amount of hotbar spaces needed for all of Sage's GCD skills. That's it. No amount of red herrings changes the fact that 5 is less than 8.

And there was another poster who literally said that they dislike having to hit Eukrasia and that it feels awful to them. By all means. Laugh at them. Since you think their opinion is laughable. I personally think that it's a completely valid opinion.

I'd love to see the Kardia and Eukrasia system expanded upon. There have been some really fun ideas put forward in their thread and I hope that we might see some cool changes in the future. But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

[TheDustyOne]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

[Supersnow845]

But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

[YarnMage48]

snip

Yes there is in fact a reason I found your post to be quite baffling. Thank you for clarifying.

I think part of what we are running into here is that most, if not all of the people in this discussion have a pretty good idea of how to actually use their kit. As a result, we aren't using GCD heals very often. And maybe opinions on that differ but I do like that model. But, given that whenever a new raid tier comes out, the Devs wake up and choose piety for all the highest ilvl gear pieces, I can only assume that there is a large faction of healers out there who struggle with MP economy. And if you're struggling with MP economy you probably aren't utilizing your kit very well. My official position on the matter is that how much piety you want on your gear is an expression of skill. And well. Some players need the piety. I have played with some of them. So the current way Eukrasia works has more applicability to players who are leaning more on those GCD skills. To say it more broadly, the class is functional for players with a broad range of skill. But at the same time, it's also nice to have the pure heal options if a run gets really really bad. And hey it happens. But that also means that, in large part, the gimmick of Eukrasia losses the spotlight for players with more skill. And that is a little unfortunate. But I don't think that means that its a poor design choice.

It's also worth saying that Philosophia is essentially a party-wide Kardia for its duration, if you aren't using it for the heal buff. So they did expand the concept of Kardia in a way similar to what you've described. I'd love it if they did that more.

I am going to go back to my position that one of the main differences between Sage and Scholar is adaptability. Yes a lot of things are built very similarly and can be keybound using the same pattern, but there are a lot of subtle differences and in practice Sage can do more on the fly. Emergency Tactics and Pepsis are a great example of this. Because Emergency Tactics needs to be used before the heal GCD, your scholar is going to need to plan for that. But Pepsis is hit after, so a Sage can decide after the fact that they'd prefer the heal. However, the heal potential of Emergency tactics is higher, especially if you were to say, combine it with Recitation. So I still find them to be very different classes in practice, even if there are a lot of parallels in the way the class is set up. Could there be more? Absolutely. I'd love more. I just think that there's more there than SE gets credit for.

[Supersnow845]

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing

[YarnMage48]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

[TheDustyOne]

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

Filler only has those negative connotations in story telling to mean time-waster. Fair enough if you're looking at the word "filler" with that lens, but filler simply means something that fills time, whether that be time-wasters like beach episodes or something you do when there's nothing better to do, it's only negative if you see those things as negative. I'd rather be pressing a button in spare time than idling, so as far as I'm concerned, filler isn't negative here.

Everyone else is more or less using filler in this thread not to mean something negative, but just to describe what something is. If you can get past the bias you have of it being negative in this context, you'll more or less get what we're trying to say. Filler doesn't mean unimportant like the 10 minutes of recapping last time on One Piece, but just that time is being filled with something meaningful like dealing damage.

[YarnMage48]

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

[Azurarok]

The general design split of the four healers is

Reactive Pure - WHM
Reactive Barrier - SGE
Proactive Pure - AST
Proactive Barrier - SCH

The Reactive healers tend to be a safer choice if incoming damage is less predictable, but the Proactive pair are generally the better choice otherwise, and are usually seen as better since this game's fights are so rigidly scripted. Extremes+ enforce the script so heavily that they often don't allow recovery, which Reactive healing excels at.

Moreover, the Proactive healers are still given plenty of tools for Reactive healing that tend to be more than enough to cover the emergency heals needed in skilled hands, so ultimately they kinda end up being able to offer more to the party. Not to mention they're also the ones with raid buffs, which makes everyone's funny numbers look bigger.

[Supersnow845]

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences