#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Supersnow845]

So discussion and response isn't allowed because it's "overly dramatic" so that doesn't count in your mind as being a point. And the other is a meme, mine is taken at face value and understood differently.

Very sound basis for discussion in a section called 'General Discussion'

One dramatic comment doesn’t prove your point when the other comment is obviously a meme.

And since when did you want to “discuss” anything. You opened with “yall are just terrible” in your opening comment

[Saraide]

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

I don't think the reaction would be as visceral if all roles could be dropped at some point of the history by relatively equal amount of times. But that's not what's happening here, it's clearly lop-sided to healers.

[ForsakenRoe]

Wasn't the change to LB generation specifically meant to deal with this

Clearly SE needs to go back to the drawing board because the bandaid on the bullet wound hasn't really had much effect (who could have seen that result coming)

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

Once upon a time, people found a way to clear Ramuh EX without having to participate in the Tank mechanic, by having Titan Egi tank the boss instead.

The fight was released with patch 2.3, on 8th July 2014. The hotfix that prevented the strategy from working was deployed on 15th July 2014. The 'exploit' lasted exactly one week before getting addressed.

[Azurarok]

I do like that this kind of non-standard play can be done even in the highest level content honestly.

What bothers me is that healers aren't really allowed to step out from their role's boundaries like tanks and some dps are capable of doing, especially since it sounded like they used to be able to do that long ago.

[HyperiusUltima]

Honestly I’m not even banking on them doing anything to Healers in 8.0 at this point. If Healers are irrelevant in every piece of content just because Tanks have all the tools to deal with nearly every instance of damage, then the role becomes moot. Even if you give Healers more damage buttons, it’s not going to fix the damage that’s been done to the role unless they reduce something on DPS/Tanks that will get Healers to be relevant again.

I also still blame Shadowbringers for this.

[Maltothoris]

Once upon a time, people found a way to clear Ramuh EX without having to participate in the Tank mechanic, by having Titan Egi tank the boss instead.

The fight was released with patch 2.3, on 8th July 2014. The hotfix that prevented the strategy from working was deployed on 15th July 2014. The 'exploit' lasted exactly one week before getting addressed.

To add to that, look at what happened with Second Coil. T8 and T9 were consistently solo tanked. When 2.3 Savage Second coil came out and Final Coil was out, there was no way you could solo tank those fights anymore.

Edit: In terms of the no healer clear, not that surprising when you have something like this going around. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=498577154

Not only does it show the timetable but also the damage that both dps/healers would take from the moves but also the tanks themselves.

[Moqi]

It amounts to nothing more than a challenge run by people who are practiced and experienced in the game, tandem to calling Dark Souls (or some other intentionally difficult game) too easy because a small sub-set of people beat the game completely naked without dying once when that doesn't change the fact that its merely an outlier and not the normal.

And yet this kind of challenge always seems to be "no healer" instead of "no DPS" or "no tank" (and yes I am aware that there's been some tank only clears). But let's keep pretending it's not a symptom of how bad healers are when we can have "green tank" and "green dps" but god forbid we get more than one attack and a dot. Why can't we have "red healer" and "blue healer" for the sake of fun challenges by experienced people?

[Shurrikhan]

Tbf, as much as we like to prop up the defined and interdependent roles as sacred, the frequency with which we can find it fun to break from a rigid allocation and with which developers can condone one role being increasingly reduced to "break free from glass only in case of emergency" makes me wonder whether overspecialization does more harm than good.

Apart from hyperoptimizing back in ARR, in turn usually only due to a very poor healer or off-tank, there was no need to consider threat as a DPS beyond mere target focus and a couple GCDs' delay on bankables (rare at the time anyways), which in many ways made DPSing feel less interesting than it had in less specialization-heavy games in which one was expected to rotate in, distract, aim things out, etc., at least on occasion or within a larger group-wide rotation/polyrhythm. That is to say, having tanks be so powerful of tanks (with hugely more passive mit and overall mit coverage, no sacrifice to rDPS output for extra threat, etc.) essentially removed optimizations otherwise possible and, frankly, fun to partake in.

Healers' offensive capability are probably the more obvious example, in dropping from an average of 11 non-filler offensive GCDs per minute on a HW WHM to now... 2-3, or WHM launching with the highest AoE spam potency in the game (until oom, as Holy cost was very high at the time) or Stormblood SCH pumping absurd dungeon AoE via Bane + M2... to healer dps becoming an increasingly lower portion of party damage and being allowed very little engagement from offensive play despite that becoming an increasingly large percentage of GCDs. But, it's not just them.

To put it another way... why do tanks need ~40% passive mit atop already large base health pools? It goes well beyond need into just making anything else too inefficient to almost ever risk participating in tanking no matter what resources or defensives they bring forward.

Why do we need so many sustain abilities, such that healers commonly have more oGCD sustain than encounters can output in damage, especially without the ability to trade that "free" sustain (ideally, at reasonable exchange) for damage? It just means that healers' maximum dps output has to be reined in light of near perfect offensive uptime, in turn reducing their dynamism and agency between providing sustain or damage -- in a word, making them more... dull.

And, in consequence, why do the outputs and positioning available to DPS have to be mostly useless for tanking or spot-healing? Such makes their sustain relevant only if an AoE heal (and even then rarely saving healers a GCD), a speedy rez unless the given defensive can be mirrored by every other DPS at the same timing in a fight to which they can be usefully synced (i.e., very rarely except in heal-less groups with frequent mit checks). The rewards for broader awareness that to many may feel essential to "team play" beyond mere failure to PK others with one's positioning just feel so few and far between. And that's in no small part just because we've made the tanks too tanky, the heals too heals-flush (especially, relative to need, especially given said tanks) and the dps therefore overly insulated and the tanks and healers less able to draw nearly as much skill expression from most situations.

[Rithy255]

And yet this kind of challenge always seems to be "no healer" instead of "no DPS" or "no tank" (and yes I am aware that there's been some tank only clears). But let's keep pretending it's not a symptom of how bad healers are when we can have "green tank" and "green dps" but god forbid we get more than one attack and a dot. Why can't we have "red healer" and "blue healer" for the sake of fun challenges by experienced people?

they've done no tank runs before you can easily find a bunch of them.

guess we should start a tank strike.