Ban premade parties in Frontline please

[SalamanderIX]

It can be a problem, but I just don't consider it a serious enough problem to give up playing with friends in Frontline.
Too casual of a mode to take serious measures, I'd rather do things in the future like:

Reduce strong crowd control effects like Salted Earth, rather than nerfing the jobs damage...
Reduce AOE damage, or give them more falloff, rather than nerfing jobs damage...

FL balancing is very lazy, and why it continues to feel really bad at times.

[Mawlzy]

Yes it does. I've played 80 matches of frontlines between this week and last week. I barely see the 6.1 to 7.0 DRK strat used, and when it is with the callouts, it doesn't really work. We are back to the 6.0 era where it is the ranged meta. The premade meta has shifted.

If you are playing melee now in general, you need to be more mindful of ranged jobs. Like White Mage with its MoN not only polymorphs you now, but it also drains you of 2500 MP or 1 self-heal, and the only upside is now its purifiable but that might not be an upside.

This is very much my experience on Aether. The main problem I see is tank/melee feel crap to play and are mostly ineffective (other than SAM). So we've gone from a premade problem to the problem that half the jobs are really not worth playing.

[Mawlzy]

Different DCs have different experiences then. I was against a premade lead by a DRK literally yesterday. So the old meta is still present here. Regardless of the composition, the fundamental problem is that premades can match against solo players. Any solution that didn't address that heart of the matter is just pushing the same problem around the table.

So this was Shatter? I think premades are still an issue on that map, but as Archeron notes, that is more a result of an effective shot-caller than the power of a DRK+ premade. (It seems DNC is the critical component of the burst now.) One of the reasons Shatter is so ghastly is that it is so predictable with a very limited number of spawn patterns. Simply putting your team in the right place is 80% of the battle. Sure the diving tricks and the more coordinated burst a premade can produce have an impact too, but if one team has a commander who knows the solution to this p.o.s. map and half the team follows them, it's a massive advantage.

The net result on Aether is that, outside of Shatter, premades are not a major issue. I imagine that will change assuming the usual suspects keep playing the mode and perfecting their strats. Look towards the rising sun for how that might develop.

[Exmo]

So this was Shatter? I think premades are still an issue on that map, but as Archeron notes, that is more a result of an effective shot-caller than the power of a DRK+ premade. (It seems DNC is the critical component of the burst now.) One of the reasons Shatter is so ghastly is that it is so predictable with a very limited number of spawn patterns. Simply putting your team in the right place is 80% of the battle. Sure the diving tricks and the more coordinated burst a premade can produce have an impact too, but if one team has a commander who knows the solution to this p.o.s. map and half the team follows them, it's a massive advantage.

The net result on Aether is that, outside of Shatter, premades are not a major issue. I imagine that will change assuming the usual suspects keep playing the mode and perfecting their strats. Look towards the rising sun for how that might develop.

As I've said a few times, the problem is the nature of premades give teams a huge advantage. It has little to do with DRK or team composition. If job abilities changed, the team composition would change, but the premade would still dominate.

I've played tons of games with shot callers who are not obviously in a premade. Having someone call shots and coordinate is not itself a problem. The problem is premades, no question about it. Do not match premades with solo players and the problem would go away.

As said before, the problem is most evident on Shatter but it's also there on the nadaam.

[Menriq]

Just so we're clear. How many is considered a premade in your definition?

[Mawlzy]

As I've said a few times, the problem is the nature of premades give teams a huge advantage. It has little to do with DRK or team composition. If job abilities changed, the team composition would change, but the premade would still dominate.

I've played tons of games with shot callers who are not obviously in a premade. Having someone call shots and coordinate is not itself a problem. The problem is premades, no question about it. Do not match premades with solo players and the problem would go away.

As said before, the problem is most evident on Shatter but it's also there on the nadaam.

I agree with this, but when we discussed the problem last year I don't think we ever found a solution to how a premade-only queue would ever pop. Tricks like allowing a solo-only queue and a first-available queue (that allowed premades) just don't seem like the sort of thing SE would contemplate. My preferred solution of a three-tier matchmaking system is looking increasingly remote as player numbers decline.

This is largely a consequence of putting 72 players on the field. I'd love to see team size reduced.

Incidentally, you mention your dislike for moving waymarkers. Ironically, they tend to make premades opposing them more effective because it makes the death ball denser and thus easier to wipe out. When used by a weak shotcaller they can be a complete disaster.

[Aravell]

So you're asking for the restricting of premades, the removal of overhead markers and the removal of waymark leading. Is the aim to kill off commanding entirely? Would you only enjoy FL if it was 3 groups of 24 headless chickens fighting each other? That doesn't sound like a fun match to me at all.

That aside, DRK premades have actually gotten weaker after the 7.1 changes. Not only are melee jobs a lot more vulnerable now, you also have a myriad of ways to remove MP from a DRK to counter how tanky they are, also there's the fact that the Salted Earth draw-in effect is so delayed now that you can very realistically just walk out of it before it takes effect if you see the DRK coming.

[Exmo]

I agree with this, but when we discussed the problem last year I don't think we ever found a solution to how a premade-only queue would ever pop. Tricks like allowing a solo-only queue and a first-available queue (that allowed premades) just don't seem like the sort of thing SE would contemplate. My preferred solution of a three-tier matchmaking system is looking increasingly remote as player numbers decline.

This is largely a consequence of putting 72 players on the field. I'd love to see team size reduced.

There's typically two FL instances outside of the graveyard shift with a wait time of ~7 minutes. A third instance could be added exclusively for non-solo players. As is presently the case, you don't necessarily need 72 players for the match to start, so the prerequisite to pop the duty could be amended downward based on numbers SE has access to.

When demand for FL dips such as during the graveyard shift, roll solo players and premades together. Given current trends, I don't think we need to discuss what to do if there just isn't ever enough numbers for split instances even during daylight hours, but an algorithm that sentries queue counts over the past 30 minutes should be sufficient to manage the threshold.

Incidentally, you mention your dislike for moving waymarkers. Ironically, they tend to make premades opposing them more effective because it makes the death ball denser and thus easier to wipe out. When used by a weak shotcaller they can be a complete disaster.

Not in my experience. Premades using the waymark macro move too fast to be disrupted before they strike. You need the opposing team to also be a premade or also using waymark macros to be able to hit then with the same speed and impact.

So you're asking for the restricting of premades, the removal of overhead markers and the removal of waymark leading. Is the aim to kill off commanding entirely? Would you only enjoy FL if it was 3 groups of 24 headless chickens fighting each other? That doesn't sound like a fun match to me at all.

You can still command without waymark macros or playing follow the leader. Vast majority outside premades do.

Also, playing follow the leader in FL is extremely boring. People complain about falling asleep during leveling roulette but FL follow the leader is the real "turn off your brain" scenario here.

[Olskul]

Why do you play MMORPGs and whine at groups of people? Maybe you got the game genre mixed up?

[Exmo]

Why do you play MMORPGs and whine at groups of people? Maybe you got the game genre mixed up?

Wait this is a MMO? I thought it was a knitting club. Thank you so much for letting me know, I'll close the thread as soon as I can find the button. What a nice young man