Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Nero-Voidstails]

i will disagree with this not because of what you think tho.

first you are probably a hardcore raider so you think that everything below savage is midcore but not my point there.


my point is why I think chaotic is hardcore isn't the fight in itself because phase one is really fun not gonna lie phase 2 is where I think it can blurr the line because of the body count but if you get people that keep trying it will be decent still hard but consistent. the problem come with how pf is run I exclude gears requirement here some player might not desire to watch a guide nor can have the time to maybe try for 90 run to complete it or 5-6 hours of time. because even if you get a good team alot of player have a strange mentality in pf that when they wipe three time they leave in a 8 man runs isn't to much of a issues but on a 24 man run can be a pain you could sit in pf for hours before filling then you go in wipe 3 time and 5 person leave it set you back into sitting in pf for who knows how long. I do understand that you want your time respected but in pf such is more harder to get and with limited time it is also not really fun not nice. so in this situation the content is midcore yes but time wise it is absolutely not most people when they speak about midcore they mean something they can go in do some progression then leave but the progression is still saved it isn't lost.

As much as people think midcore player cry for easier content then savage some are for sure but most of them want something they can find hard and still have numbers goes up some have kids other have health issues some even have disability and struggles on those thing making it well not respect they're time. If you want to say something make sure to understand all side of the coin not everyone is willing to take a game as a second job either and some doesn't even see the point in gearing up since on 7.3 all the cap gear you get will become useless that could also be a thing in itself.

if i am disrespectful in anyway well it wasn't my point just trying to make other see what someone could be in understanding others after all the reason why I am done complaining about people asking to have watched guides because I do understand why.


also a other thing about pf that most people forget is the game will not try to fill the duty at any point when people leave making it slightly annoying instead of DF that allow yoi to search for other player when people leaves the duty whatever the duty is.(except ultimate)

[Jeeqbit]

they essentially want dungeon-bosses from Dawntrail, but made separately from said dungeons so it would "feel" cooler.

It's more like:

• Buff the damage output of the bosses.
• Remove indicators (AoE indicators, tank buster indicators, how about stack indicators).
• Make raid-wides kill the party without stuff like Reprisal and raid-wide mit

That's really it. They'd still be pretty easy. Just wouldn't be holding your hand quite as much.

The dungeons have actually been better in this regard since Shadowbringers, in that they have been willing to kill with things like Doom, stopped using orange telegraphs always, forcing you to observe your environment.

The reason these dungeons don't satisfy midcore players is actually because it is just 1 dungeon that has to last 4 months. No matter how hard they make the dungeon, people become an "expert" at it and get extremely bored of it, because it's a scripted dance where the mechanics always happen the same way in the same order.

For example, I had deaths in some of the Dawntrail expert dungeons initially. But if I do them now, after 7 months, I am extremely bored. I execute every mechanic flawlessly, as I watch a new or returning player struggle with it and they look up at me in awe that I'm not struggling with this thing I've done for 7 months.

The key difference is, more experienced players had/have the ability to carry those who were unable to pass it by themself.

There is leeway for a few to be dead most of the time. The whole point is that if chaotic did not have those few mechanics that want everyone to be alive and doing a mechanic or had a little extra leeway, then it would allow this very thing (of being able to carry some people through).

the fact that the guide is 30 minutes long show how many mechanics there are to learn and remember.

Not necessarily.

I've watched 10 minute dungeon guides (when I was new), which spent 2 minutes explaining each mechanic in the fight. Watching it made me very scared of the mechanic and unsure if I could do it right.

When I did it, the mechanic lasted 3 seconds and was a joke - super easy even. The guide overcomplicated it with marker positions, arrows and everything. And it was super obvious in the moment... the guide was a waste of time!

Once I got to the endgame and started doing new dungeons blind, I truly began to realize this. Guides weren't even needed. Just using your head is enough to figure them out usually.

A guide could spend 30 minutes explaining mechanics that last a fraction of the time. Hector's savage guides usually last 20-30 minutes, but there are guides way shorter than that covering the same mechanics.

If you subtract all the mechanics that are "obvious" (in-out aoes) or "stuff we all know" (like gazes, flares, tank buster indicators) or "stuff we'll learn in 1 pull", you can cut a guide down to just the important stuff that actually needs a guide.

Back when I used to watch guides more, I would sift through it and identify which mechanics weren't obvious or that affected the tank (because many mechanics didn't affect tanks or didn't matter to them). The result was a very small list of things for me to remember, which I put in an echo macro in case I forgot.

[Hallarem]

I think the term "midcore" is just an expression in case of FFXIV, a catch all term for content that doesnt need the usual song and dance of:

-Equip the latest crafted gear
-Toss yourself in a static or build one
-Memorize an arduous dance
-If one, you or more fail it sometimes even once, its over
- Repeat your rotation, everyone is a glorified dps

Extreme I think is somewhat entry level to harder content, but its still the same song and dance.

Bozja is a good example,and pvp would be good if they actually developed it more and made the rewards more robust and added more rewards for currency, maybe even some story.

- Enter whenever
- Have the chance to express yourself with gear and builds
- No need to build a team, teaming up is more fluid, shouting out "LGF" in the open world is the most MMO thing out there and FFXIV lacks it.
- If one of you fails, the team can still pick up
- Chance to grind things in the open world for rng drops. (Eureka gear upgrades, treasures, Bozja resistance gems, boxes etc) Good type of RNG. Fuels the economy too and gives people a chance to earn gil.

Thats my take.
Id say include criterion as well, but the harder version is a bit too punishing and the gearing system of the whole of FFXIV would have to be transformed into something meaningful and worth chasing and improving your character. I reckon its hard when the whole of the hardcore scene would complain if there would be a required gear grind. The game feels like a raid simulator for busy officeworkers not an MMO.

[At0msk]

Midcore doesn't exist. If it's not hardcore it's casual and anyone who honestly thinks otherwise is coping. It doesn't exist. It's never existed. It's only ever been a term used to make the same players who whined about second coil/gordias difficulty on release feel better after they complained about it being too easy, demanded something harder, then got clapped back to reality not once, not twice, but three times with the inclusion of Steps of Faith. Chaotic isn't midcore, it's casual content but with a lot more cats to herd and twice as many ego's in need of bruising.
Make the game as hard or as easy as they like as long as it has integrity (14 lost it's intigrety a long time ago), fun and as long as it's good. That's all I care about. Lastly, if you're not clearing ultimates then you're casual and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm a casual, I have been since SB dropped and they gutted the game for the worse (and have continued to do so since). That's going to hurt a lot of feelings but it is what it is.

[Xrono_Amber]

It's more like:

• Buff the damage output of the bosses.
• Remove indicators (AoE indicators, tank buster indicators, how about stack indicators).
• Make raid-wides kill the party without stuff like Reprisal and raid-wide mit

That's really it. They'd still be pretty easy. Just wouldn't be holding your hand quite as much.

Hmmmm. Would be fun to have this as a final boss of every "expert" dungeon. But even if we implement it as a new form of content altogether it wouldn't fundamentally change this part:

No matter how hard they make the dungeon, people become an "expert" at it and get extremely bored of it, because it's a scripted dance where the mechanics always happen the same way in the same order.

Because every fight is like this. The dance we memorize as it is always roughly the same. No matter if it's ultimate or normal trial. It would be fun if they tried experimenting with more randomness. Like, let's say..four separate mechanics, each of which can be intertwined with one another and played in a completely random order. So you can't always tell "oh, soon we'll get aoe-damage, gotta shield up!" Can this be learned eventually too? Of course. It's possible to learn everything and you can't make an ever-changing fight, at least, right now. But it would feel at least more fun.

For example, I had deaths in some of the Dawntrail expert dungeons initially. But if I do them now, after 7 months, I am extremely bored. I execute every mechanic flawlessly, as I watch a new or returning player struggle with it and they look up at me in awe that I'm not struggling with this thing I've done for 7 months.

They should release more content and do so more often. You can make every possible fight the best it ever was, but if you only have 4 savages for good part of year, it's not enough. If you have just 2 "expert" dungeons for about the same ammount of time as savages, it's not enough either.

[CNitsah]

No wonder the dev are so out of touch, if they consider content for midcore player only as a difficulty.

This is only one part of the equation. Midcore players are players that will engage with the game a lot. It's about the engagement. I always take this exemple : running eureka or bozja/zadnor once for the story (and maybe one relic) is pretty much casual : farming it for month to get several/all the relics is definitely midcore player area, despite being fairly easy (try to tell me someone that got all the SB or ShB relics is a casual player... No, just no).

The interview says that Chaotic was done in response to 2 criticism : having things to do in large group and lack of midcore content : in both case I feel they missed the point of the criticism. I feared for the new exploratory zone, when they only covered the "wanting thing to do in large group" when they removed it, and never talked about the about the shelf life part (and let's be honsest, that was the core of the criticism when it came to this complaint) : I'm now nearly sure they totally missed that and fear for the shade triangle even more. For the midcore content, I feel the criticism was more "we want thing to do that don't ask us to go to PF where it can takes an hour to fill before even start".

I feel like there was goodwill to answer the critics, but they interpreted them wrongly (player base is partially to blame, I've felt they failed to put the point on the right things when it came to the removal of exploratory zone from day one : the shelf life argument only exploded months after the complaints began). Even in Japan, despite the fight being popular, (an average of 20% clear by server, and probably as much in prog), the criticism "still content for raiders while the rest of us can continue to get bored" is fairly popular).

[Nero-Voidstails]

No wonder the dev are so out of touch, if they consider content for midcore player only as a difficulty.

This is only one part of the equation. Midcore players are players that will engage with the game a lot. It's about the engagement. I always take this exemple : running eureka or bozja/zadnor once for the story (and maybe one relic) is pretty much casual : farming it for month to get several/all the relics is definitely midcore player area, despite being fairly easy (try to tell me someone that got all the SB or ShB relics is a casual player... No, just no).

The interview says that Chaotic was done in response to 2 criticism : having things to do in large group and lack of midcore content : in both case I feel they missed the point of the criticism. I feared for the new exploratory zone, when they only covered the "wanting thing to do in large group" when they removed it, and never talked about the about the shelf life part : I'm now nearly sure they totally missed that and fear for the shade triangle even more. For the midcore content, I feel the criticism was more "we want thing to do that don't ask us to go to PF where it can takes an hour to fill before even start". I feel like there was goodwill to answer the critics, but they interpreted it wrongly. Even in Japan, despite the fight being popular, (an average of 20% clear by server, taking in account that some are probably still in prog), the criticism "still content for raiders while the rest of us can continue to get bored" is fairly popular).

as much as we explain people will never understand because they only care about themself and don't see the bigger picture of things that we like it or not alots of hardcore raiders want the casual and midcore to vanish so let them be toxic at this point

[Connor]

Not to be rude but it seems silly to argue over the definition of a word with no predetermined definition.

Midcore means…whatever you think it means lol…there is no ‘objective “midcore”’ just like there’s no ‘objective hardcore’. It’s all entirely dependant on who’s looking at it in the first place

[BigCheez]

The chaotic raid guide is like 30 minutes long. It's definitely not midcore content (especially with a 24 players requirement).

I find it really funny when people try to point at specific things or mechanics like this as if midcore is an incredibly strictly defined concept.

You can clear it in PF within a few sessions. It's midcore.

[BigCheez]

I think the term "midcore" is just an expression in case of FFXIV, a catch all term for content that doesnt need the usual song and dance of:

-Equip the latest crafted gear
-Toss yourself in a static or build one
-Memorize an arduous dance
-If one, you or more fail it sometimes even once, its over
- Repeat your rotation, everyone is a glorified dps

Extreme I think is somewhat entry level to harder content, but its still the same song and dance.

Bozja is a good example,and pvp would be good if they actually developed it more and made the rewards more robust and added more rewards for currency, maybe even some story.

- Enter whenever
- Have the chance to express yourself with gear and builds
- No need to build a team, teaming up is more fluid, shouting out "LGF" in the open world is the most MMO thing out there and FFXIV lacks it.
- If one of you fails, the team can still pick up
- Chance to grind things in the open world for rng drops. (Eureka gear upgrades, treasures, Bozja resistance gems, boxes etc) Good type of RNG. Fuels the economy too and gives people a chance to earn gil.

Thats my take.
Id say include criterion as well, but the harder version is a bit too punishing and the gearing system of the whole of FFXIV would have to be transformed into something meaningful and worth chasing and improving your character. I reckon its hard when the whole of the hardcore scene would complain if there would be a required gear grind. The game feels like a raid simulator for busy officeworkers not an MMO.

Bozja is casual content. Have you ever asked someone if they want to go to Bozja and they've said "nah, that's too hardcore for me"? No? That's because it isn't halfway between casual content and hardcore content. It's just casual content.