Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Stanelis]

I've always counted EX trials as midcore.
So putting Chaotic halfway between EX and Savage would imo put it as a "high midcore/low hardcore".

The chaotic raid guide is like 30 minutes long. It's definitely not midcore content (especially with a 24 players requirement).

[Jeeqbit]

The chaotic raid guide is like 30 minutes long. It's definitely not midcore content

30 minutes does not make something hard. Alliance Raids themselves can sometimes take that long, yet they are not regarded as hard.

The main thing even standing in the way of it being regarded as that is the tile phase due mostly to just a few mechanics which cause the majority of players not to be able to progress.

(especially with a 24 players requirement).

Normal alliance raids require 24 players. Delubrum Reginae, which was pretty good, also involved 24 players originally. Same with CLL. None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

It's really just a few mechanics in the tile phase in chaotic that really grind people's progress to a halt.

[Xrono_Amber]

None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

Nah, I would say they were and still are. The key difference is, more experienced players had/have the ability to carry those who were unable to pass it by themself. I have friends who regularly die in dungeons and alliance raids. If I were to drag them into Delubrum Reginae, I would be able to lead them to victory. But not because they suddenly became great gamers. Because I would have the ability to raise them again and keep pushing, just like in dungeons and alliance raids.

And I think this is the idea of "midcore" content we could realistically get and people would be relatively pleased with.

[Stanelis]

30 minutes does not make something hard. Alliance Raids themselves can sometimes take that long, yet they are not regarded as hard.

The main thing even standing in the way of it being regarded as that is the tile phase due mostly to just a few mechanics which cause the majority of players not to be able to progress.
Normal alliance raids require 24 players. Delubrum Reginae, which was pretty good, also involved 24 players originally. Same with CLL. None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

It's really just a few mechanics in the tile phase in chaotic that really grind people's progress to a halt.

Main difference with Eureka and Delubrum reginae are a) there weren't only one boss and any particular boss weren't that complex and b) due to the fact there were several bosses, a raid leader could call the mechanics so even beginners could compete the raid c) raid leaders could make a recap of the mechanics before any particular boss.

Also the fact that the guide is 30 minutes long show how many mechanics there are to learn and remember.

[Jeeqbit]

they essentially want dungeon-bosses from Dawntrail, but made separately from said dungeons so it would "feel" cooler.

It's more like:

• Buff the damage output of the bosses.
• Remove indicators (AoE indicators, tank buster indicators, how about stack indicators).
• Make raid-wides kill the party without stuff like Reprisal and raid-wide mit

That's really it. They'd still be pretty easy. Just wouldn't be holding your hand quite as much.

The dungeons have actually been better in this regard since Shadowbringers, in that they have been willing to kill with things like Doom, stopped using orange telegraphs always, forcing you to observe your environment.

The reason these dungeons don't satisfy midcore players is actually because it is just 1 dungeon that has to last 4 months. No matter how hard they make the dungeon, people become an "expert" at it and get extremely bored of it, because it's a scripted dance where the mechanics always happen the same way in the same order.

For example, I had deaths in some of the Dawntrail expert dungeons initially. But if I do them now, after 7 months, I am extremely bored. I execute every mechanic flawlessly, as I watch a new or returning player struggle with it and they look up at me in awe that I'm not struggling with this thing I've done for 7 months.

The key difference is, more experienced players had/have the ability to carry those who were unable to pass it by themself.

There is leeway for a few to be dead most of the time. The whole point is that if chaotic did not have those few mechanics that want everyone to be alive and doing a mechanic or had a little extra leeway, then it would allow this very thing (of being able to carry some people through).

the fact that the guide is 30 minutes long show how many mechanics there are to learn and remember.

Not necessarily.

I've watched 10 minute dungeon guides (when I was new), which spent 2 minutes explaining each mechanic in the fight. Watching it made me very scared of the mechanic and unsure if I could do it right.

When I did it, the mechanic lasted 3 seconds and was a joke - super easy even. The guide overcomplicated it with marker positions, arrows and everything. And it was super obvious in the moment... the guide was a waste of time!

Once I got to the endgame and started doing new dungeons blind, I truly began to realize this. Guides weren't even needed. Just using your head is enough to figure them out usually.

A guide could spend 30 minutes explaining mechanics that last a fraction of the time. Hector's savage guides usually last 20-30 minutes, but there are guides way shorter than that covering the same mechanics.

If you subtract all the mechanics that are "obvious" (in-out aoes) or "stuff we all know" (like gazes, flares, tank buster indicators) or "stuff we'll learn in 1 pull", you can cut a guide down to just the important stuff that actually needs a guide.

Back when I used to watch guides more, I would sift through it and identify which mechanics weren't obvious or that affected the tank (because many mechanics didn't affect tanks or didn't matter to them). The result was a very small list of things for me to remember, which I put in an echo macro in case I forgot.

[Xrono_Amber]

It's more like:

• Buff the damage output of the bosses.
• Remove indicators (AoE indicators, tank buster indicators, how about stack indicators).
• Make raid-wides kill the party without stuff like Reprisal and raid-wide mit

That's really it. They'd still be pretty easy. Just wouldn't be holding your hand quite as much.

Hmmmm. Would be fun to have this as a final boss of every "expert" dungeon. But even if we implement it as a new form of content altogether it wouldn't fundamentally change this part:

No matter how hard they make the dungeon, people become an "expert" at it and get extremely bored of it, because it's a scripted dance where the mechanics always happen the same way in the same order.

Because every fight is like this. The dance we memorize as it is always roughly the same. No matter if it's ultimate or normal trial. It would be fun if they tried experimenting with more randomness. Like, let's say..four separate mechanics, each of which can be intertwined with one another and played in a completely random order. So you can't always tell "oh, soon we'll get aoe-damage, gotta shield up!" Can this be learned eventually too? Of course. It's possible to learn everything and you can't make an ever-changing fight, at least, right now. But it would feel at least more fun.

For example, I had deaths in some of the Dawntrail expert dungeons initially. But if I do them now, after 7 months, I am extremely bored. I execute every mechanic flawlessly, as I watch a new or returning player struggle with it and they look up at me in awe that I'm not struggling with this thing I've done for 7 months.

They should release more content and do so more often. You can make every possible fight the best it ever was, but if you only have 4 savages for good part of year, it's not enough. If you have just 2 "expert" dungeons for about the same ammount of time as savages, it's not enough either.

[BigCheez]

The chaotic raid guide is like 30 minutes long. It's definitely not midcore content (especially with a 24 players requirement).

I find it really funny when people try to point at specific things or mechanics like this as if midcore is an incredibly strictly defined concept.

You can clear it in PF within a few sessions. It's midcore.