Chaotic is midcore, in case you were wondering

[Jeeqbit]

The chaotic raid guide is like 30 minutes long. It's definitely not midcore content

30 minutes does not make something hard. Alliance Raids themselves can sometimes take that long, yet they are not regarded as hard.

The main thing even standing in the way of it being regarded as that is the tile phase due mostly to just a few mechanics which cause the majority of players not to be able to progress.

(especially with a 24 players requirement).

Normal alliance raids require 24 players. Delubrum Reginae, which was pretty good, also involved 24 players originally. Same with CLL. None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

It's really just a few mechanics in the tile phase in chaotic that really grind people's progress to a halt.

[Basteala]

My biggest problem with chaotic being "midcore" is the number of people you need--from what I've heard, running fewer people is suboptimal. In other words, more difficult. Which isn't exactly ideal for a midcore audience. The whole point of midcore is wanting a challenge where the game isn't holding their hand, but you aren't required to coordinate and schedule and make a second job out of content like hardcore progression--or just NOT progress 9 times out of 10 if you don't (sometimes PF can win one).

30 minutes does not make something hard. Alliance Raids themselves can sometimes take that long, yet they are not regarded as hard.

The main thing even standing in the way of it being regarded as that is the tile phase due mostly to just a few mechanics which cause the majority of players not to be able to progress.
Normal alliance raids require 24 players. Delubrum Reginae, which was pretty good, also involved 24 players originally. Same with CLL. None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.
.

Sure, but Alliance Raids are braindead and there's a marked difference between picking 23 guys off the street vs having 23 people that are actually capable of progressing.

CLL on the other hand I'll give you. CLL would happily punch you in the mouth if you weren't paying attention and was satisfying to do, but nowadays it's hard to get those groups together because of a lack of extrinsic motivation, and I would argue Chaotic is the same way.

It's almost like tying the relic quests to tome grinding was a terrible, terrible idea.

[Supersnow845]

snip

Like I said I don’t think extremes aren’t midcore from the perspective of mechanical execution difficulty I’m saying I want content that is basically extremes without body checks and replacing coordinated mechanics with equivalent difficulty self mechanics (let’s use the example of chess in DRS)

You have said in multiple replies that “how do you make difficulty if there is no punishment”. Is something like chess (hell now I think about it most of DRS actually fits this bill though it’s also potentially a little too hard for what I mean) not an example of a difficulty mechanic with no punishment.

There should be room to have fights that have mechanics of a similar difficulty in pure singular mechanical execution to an easy extreme down to a hard alliance raid but functionally lacking body checks, being slightly slower and maybe less healing intensive. That’s still much harder than any normal except maybe shiva but easier than 9 extremes out of 10

Vali is really the only example we’ve had recently as I really don’t count unreal

[Xrono_Amber]

None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

Nah, I would say they were and still are. The key difference is, more experienced players had/have the ability to carry those who were unable to pass it by themself. I have friends who regularly die in dungeons and alliance raids. If I were to drag them into Delubrum Reginae, I would be able to lead them to victory. But not because they suddenly became great gamers. Because I would have the ability to raise them again and keep pushing, just like in dungeons and alliance raids.

And I think this is the idea of "midcore" content we could realistically get and people would be relatively pleased with.

[Reylap]

Like I said I don’t think extremes aren’t midcore from the perspective of mechanical execution difficulty I’m saying I want content that is basically extremes without body checks and replacing coordinated mechanics with equivalent difficulty self mechanics (let’s use the example of chess in DRS)

You have said in multiple replies that “how do you make difficulty if there is no punishment”. Is something like chess (hell now I think about it most of DRS actually fits this bill though it’s also potentially a little too hard for what I mean) not an example of a difficulty mechanic with no punishment.

There should be room to have fights that have mechanics of a similar difficulty in pure singular mechanical execution to an easy extreme down to a hard alliance raid but functionally lacking body checks, being slightly slower and maybe less healing intensive. That’s still much harder than any normal except maybe shiva but easier than 9 extremes out of 10

Vali is really the only example we’ve had recently as I really don’t count unreal

What you're literally asking is making the Normal and Alliance raids and MSQ for that matter HARDER. Which is a thing i've been saying that SE babied the shit out of their players. Let me ask you this, do you consider Strayborough first boss to be that? Because you just exactly asked for Strayborough difficulty. But good luck trying to convince most players "look guys, strayborough is a midcore content". And ive seen wipes to that boss where they have to reset.

If you're taking DRS as chess as a standard of difficulty, again I'm asking you. There are shittons of mechanics in extreme that are even below that level. Why would adding a body check (which most of extreme dont even use body checks but they used vuln) suddently makes it not a midcore?

This is not an argument of what consitute as midcore. Like my dude, youre asking for less healing intensive fights than extreme. Do you not understand the level of sloppyness you can get away in extreme? Sage can basically just spam shield and you would not even have any trouble mitigation or DPS wise

And let me get this straight, I dont consider midcore from just difficulty perspective as I've said. Difficulty is just part of the slider the devs can play. Extreme is a midcore content, because they slide that difficulty just a TINY bit higher, but they remove virtually any barriers to entry. You can clear it immediately after finishing story just with class gears and spend even a reasonable amount of times (1 hour to maybe 5 hours to prog at worse). I would actually even agree the argument that extreme is not midcore because the grind for the rewards is not even comparable (clearing 100 times for sometimes a shitty mount copy pasted, how fun).

But you're impliying that Extreme is already hardcore territory because of body checks are kinda indicative of why NA parties are struggling in CAR.

[Stanelis]

30 minutes does not make something hard. Alliance Raids themselves can sometimes take that long, yet they are not regarded as hard.

The main thing even standing in the way of it being regarded as that is the tile phase due mostly to just a few mechanics which cause the majority of players not to be able to progress.
Normal alliance raids require 24 players. Delubrum Reginae, which was pretty good, also involved 24 players originally. Same with CLL. None of these were "impossibly difficult" for a casual player that doesn't normally play the game.

It's really just a few mechanics in the tile phase in chaotic that really grind people's progress to a halt.

Main difference with Eureka and Delubrum reginae are a) there weren't only one boss and any particular boss weren't that complex and b) due to the fact there were several bosses, a raid leader could call the mechanics so even beginners could compete the raid c) raid leaders could make a recap of the mechanics before any particular boss.

Also the fact that the guide is 30 minutes long show how many mechanics there are to learn and remember.

[Supersnow845]

What you're literally asking is making the Normal and Alliance raids and MSQ for that matter HARDER. Which is a thing i've been saying that SE babied the shit out of their players. Let me ask you this, do you consider Strayborough first boss to be that? Because you just exactly asked for Strayborough difficulty. But good luck trying to convince most players "look guys, strayborough is a midcore content". And ive seen wipes to that boss where they have to reset.

If you're taking DRS as chess as a standard of difficulty, again I'm asking you. There are shittons of mechanics in extreme that are even below that level. Why would adding a body check (which most of extreme dont even use body checks but they used vuln) suddently makes it not a midcore?

This is not an argument of what consitute as midcore. Like my dude, youre asking for less healing intensive fights than extreme. Do you not understand the level of sloppyness you can get away in extreme? Sage can basically just spam shield and you would not even have any trouble mitigation or DPS wise

And let me get this straight, I dont consider midcore from just difficulty perspective as I've said. Difficulty is just part of the slider the devs can play. Extreme is a midcore content, because they slide that difficulty just a TINY bit higher, but they remove virtually any barriers to entry. You can clear it immediately after finishing story just with class gears and spend even a reasonable amount of times (1 hour to maybe 5 hours to prog at worse). I would actually even agree the argument that extreme is not midcore because the grind for the rewards is not even comparable (clearing 100 times for sometimes a shitty mount copy pasted, how fun).

But you're impliying that Extreme is already hardcore territory because of body checks are kinda indicative of why NA parties are struggling in CAR.

I’ve said like 5 times that I don’t think extremes are hardcore, I don’t really know what else to say on that front. I’m saying that a form of content should exist that’s extremes but made easier while still being much harder than normals. That isn’t saying that extremes aren’t midcore. If you want to say I’m asking for “harder normal and alliance raids” then congrats we’ve circled back to my original point you overanalysed so far that you reached a different point

Extremes aren’t a consistent difficulty or consistent design, in a period where the extremes lean towards the more dance heavy light savages (like say golbez or eternal queen) here needs to be a consistent content that sits between that and the normal raids. This can also vary, I personally think chess is easy but I know other struggle with it, on the other hand I suck badly at TA

[Xrono_Amber]

Let me ask you this, do you consider Strayborough first boss to be that? Because you just exactly asked for Strayborough difficulty. But good luck trying to convince most players "look guys, strayborough is a midcore content". And ive seen wipes to that boss where they have to reset.

My hot-take is that when people ask for more "midcore" content, they essentially want dungeon-bosses from Dawntrail, but made separately from said dungeons so it would "feel" cooler.
And they want this said feeling because of this:

Sure, but Alliance Raids are braindead...

Because of the reputation of casual content as "braindead". Is it easy? Yes, of course, that's the whole point of it.
But because of such evaluation it doesn't feel cool to say "I've cleared it!" And "midcore" is the desire to have something to brag about without the ability to invest much time in one instance or having some great gaming skills.

[TaleraRistain]

What's interesting is that not all Extremes are designed equally. Some Extremes are easier than Savage, while others are as hard as the first or even second floor of Savage.

Savage itself is also not consistent with difficulty. Sometimes the second floor is harder than the third.

Which we just saw last expansion. Golbez was one of the Savage Lite EX trials and P10S was harder than P11S.

[Reylap]

I’ve said like 5 times that I don’t think extremes are hardcore, I don’t really know what else to say on that front. I’m saying that a form of content should exist that’s extremes but made easier while still being much harder than normals. That isn’t saying that extremes aren’t midcore. If you want to say I’m asking for “harder normal and alliance raids” then congrats we’ve circled back to my original point you overanalysed so far that you reached a different point

Extremes aren’t a consistent difficulty or consistent design, in a period where the extremes lean towards the more dance heavy light savages (like say golbez or eternal queen) here needs to be a consistent content that sits between that and the normal raids. This can also vary, I personally think chess is easy but I know other struggle with it, on the other hand I suck badly at TA

And my point is that it is Extreme is not that FAR of a jump that you make it to be from Normal raids, Trials, or even Alliance Raid, if we are just talking on difficulty alone. Extreme was made to bridge the difficulty between Savage and Normal. They literally have said that before.
Going from their track records, that has been fairly consistent in terms of difficulty, especially if you consider that each iteration of the extreme should be harder given the times, but it really isnt considering that jobs changes, simplification etc.

And asking for harder new content compared to making harder alliance raid are not the same thing. Making harder alliance and normal raids will still constitute it as Casual content. Why? Cuz you have literally no incentive to even do it consistently, you probably just get a better amount of players that DONT complain when they release slightly difficult thing like CAR. Whereas bozja or eureka are actually in the same ballpark of difficulty to normal or alliance. You just think its harder but thats skewed because of the amount of players. Difficulty of content is NOT the problem here because if its difficulty you ask, then Extreme is the content to spam (and now CAR to up one level after it).

What makes eureka or BA or even Bozja, interesting to play is not the difficulty. It's the goal behind it (ozma mount, shining armors) and the different playstyle you can do outside of the normal ffxiv combat. So asking for just "difficult" new content without the depth of even Bozja is pointless (look at criterion).