Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Realfoxy]

“Why do people keep making excuses for bad balance”

Because the idea that selfish DPS have to always be first because if they aren’t first they are last to me IS THE BAD BALANCE PARADIGM

You're still not making an actual argument here, it just sounds like you have some vendetta against SAM/MCH/BLM.

And since you aren't making an argument, I'll make it for you. I guess you could say that adding utility to selfish jobs would give you more leeway in job choice, because the value of utility would be incomparable between jobs, which means that you could pick one over the other in certain situations for utility rather than damage reasons, lessening the need to balance their DPS as closely.

To which I would counter with two things:

1. The devs should buck up and actually do their damn jobs balancing DPS output

2. It would be a shame to lose the identity associated with selfish DPS jobs. SAM is a loner with a sword. I'd argue it's quite key to the class identity that they stand alone and launch hard hitting high damage attacks. Same goes for Black Mage. A master of the arcane arts, studying in isolation to perfect magic with pure, destructive power associated with the downfall of a civilization.

I won't rehash the job identity / homogenisation discourse again. I'm sure you could come up with some utility themed for SAM/BLM that would fit with them. I just don't think it's worth the loss in job identity compared to jobs that are themed to be more supportive.

EDIT: You'll notice I omitted MCH here. Its job identity is a little less clear since it's kind of a blend between 'lone sniper' and 'master of gadgetry'. I'll let the MCH mains decide whether they want to be supportive or selfish.

[Supersnow845]

You're still not making an actual argument here, it just sounds like you have some vendetta against SAM/MCH/BLM.

And since you aren't making an argument, I'll make it for you. I guess you could say that adding utility to selfish jobs would give you more leeway in job choice, because the value of utility would be incomparable between jobs, which means that you could pick one over the other in certain situations for utility rather than damage reasons, lessening the need to balance their DPS as closely.

To which I would counter with two things:

1. The devs should buck up and actually do their damn jobs balancing DPS output

2. It would be a shame to lose the identity associated with selfish DPS jobs. SAM is a loner with a sword. I'd argue it's quite key to the class identity that they stand alone and launch hard hitting high damage attacks. Same goes for Black Mage. A master of the arcane arts, studying in isolation to perfect magic with pure, destructive power associated with the downfall of a civilization.

I won't rehash the job identity / homogenisation discourse again. I'm sure you could come up with some utility themed for SAM/BLM that would fit with them. I just don't think it's worth the less in job identity compared to jobs that are themed to be more supportive.

Your first counter is “the devs should properly balance DPS” which your yard stick for what constitutes “balance” is different to mine and so is basically a pointless point. For example I have no problem with 10+% balance discrepancies if everyone has their niche and their chance to shine. I’ve stated on multiple PCT posts that I would be fine with PCT down with say…..RPR in full uptime if it stayed very slightly ahead in ultimate because that’s PCT’s niche. Then BLM can have the highest damage caster niche in full uptime. If you want BLM ahead in all circumstances that’s just actively restrictive. I actively hate “every job is the same but at least they are all within 5% of each other”, I also dislike forcing the selfish DPS to always be first because we have this argument every expansion, this isn’t a new argument BLM was losing their shit at SMN in 5.1 for the same reason and BLM and SAM were losing their shit at every DPS not named BRD or RDM in 4.x for again the same reason. I don’t necessarily know your opinion on the first half of this point but I know your opinion on the second half. So who’s balance should square be “bucking up and balancing around”

And selfish DPS can retain having no utility I’m not saying they should be forced to have utility but they should also be fine not ALWAYS being the top DPS because that’s equally unfair to every job that isn’t one of the 3 selfish jobs (MCH doesn’t count). Plus where do you put NIN and DRG? They have nothing besides their DPS buff, are they not “selfish” from a utility perspective. And what about SAM, it has a tank tier CD on a functionally zero CD, I’d argue that’s more utility than NIN has, so who’s the selfish DPS here

Edit to the point below I’m honestly not mentioning MCH because it isn’t really relevant but I’m totally fine with MCH doing melee damage, physical ranged as a role concept is a wider problem I’ve discussed in greater detail on physical ranged threads

[Realfoxy]

Your first counter is “the devs should properly balance DPS” ...

OK, well first I actually think a 10% gap is probably too large for me, but I don't mind a like, 5-7% gap if we actually get some decent job identity. Right now we don't have job identity, we have every single job building to a burst in buffs every two minutes.

And you still haven't actually articulated an argument for why selfish DPS shouldn't be ahead in each expansion. I mean "we can't have selfish DPS ahead because of people whining on the forums" isn't an argument. You said BLM always ahead is "actively restrictive". It's funny you mention that because even when BLM has historically been overpowered, we've never had a tier where BLM was the dominating caster DPS.

RE: NIN and DRG, I consider them to be on the same level as SAM in that they do not offer any extra utility. SAM has a personal mit, just like NIN has a personal mit. It's arguably DRG who's getting a bit shafted here.

But yeah, if you want PCT ahead in burst and cDPS while BLM beats it in full uptime and rDPS, I guess that's fair. It depends on the amounts, I guess.


One final thing: People keep talking about class identity and numerical balance being in some kind of irresolvable tension. I personally think that while they are in tension people overrate how much this actually matters.



This was Eden's Promise. Now ignore the phys ranged and this chart looks pretty good. See how small the spread is? This isn't some unattainable ideal. We had jobs with clear identities and good balance and it wasn't even that long ago!

[Supersnow845]

OK, well first I actually think a 10% gap is probably too large for me, but I don't mind a like, 5-7% gap if we actually get some decent job identity. Right now we don't have job identity, we have every single job building to a burst in buffs every two minutes.

And you still haven't actually articulated an argument for why selfish DPS shouldn't be ahead in each expansion. I mean "we can't have selfish DPS ahead because of people whining on the forums" isn't an argument. You said BLM always ahead is "actively restrictive". It's funny you mention that because even when BLM has historically been overpowered, we've never had a tier where BLM was the dominating caster DPS.

RE: NIN and DRG, I consider them to be on the same level as SAM in that they do not offer any extra utility. SAM has a personal mit, just like NIN has a personal mit. It's arguably DRG who's getting a bit shafted here.

But yeah, if you want PCT ahead in burst and cDPS while BLM beats it in full uptime and rDPS, I guess that's fair. It depends on the amounts, I guess.


One final thing: People keep talking about class identity and numerical balance being in some kind of irresolvable tension. I personally think that while they are in tension people overrate how much this actually matters.



This was Eden's Promise. Now ignore the phys ranged and this chart looks pretty good. See how small the spread is? This isn't some unattainable ideal. We had jobs with clear identities and good balance and it wasn't even that long ago!

We’ve kinda reached a natural conclusion of everything above the linked photo so I’ll leave that off there other than say my argument for why the selfish DPS shouldn’t always be first is exactly the same reason you have for why you don’t always want PCT being first. Because if every job is a DPS and different fights reward different types of jobs then selfish DPS always being first is just a messy and restrictive balancing decision. How do you make BLM ahead in FRU for example? but I will say if your yardstick for “diverse jobs” is edens promise we are discussing things that are functionally worlds away and you had to exclude the phys ranged to even make that point

[Realfoxy]

We’ve kinda reached a natural conclusion of everything above the linked photo so I’ll leave that off there other than say my argument for why the selfish DPS shouldn’t always be first is exactly the same reason you have for why you don’t always want PCT being first. Because if every job is a DPS and different fights reward different types of jobs then selfish DPS always being first is just a messy and restrictive balancing decision. How do you make BLM ahead in FRU for example? but I will say if your yardstick for “diverse jobs” is edens promise we are discussing things that are functionally worlds away and you had to exclude the phys ranged to even make that point

Oh, when I meant I want BLM ahead, I just meant it should be ahead in rDPS + cDPS on like, all Savage fights. That would give you room for an adjusted PCT (to be less bursty) to exist and be favored overall in something like FRU. With BLM having rDPS there could be phases like FRU intermission or TOP P4 that favour its design while PCT does better in others.

RE: ShB job design vs Stormblood and earlier - I'm sympathetic to the idea that we had more diverse job design in SB, but I don't think we're ever going back to that era of job + fight design.

[Reginald_Cain]

We’ve kinda reached a natural conclusion of everything above the linked photo so I’ll leave that off there other than say my argument for why the selfish DPS shouldn’t always be first is exactly the same reason you have for why you don’t always want PCT being first. Because if every job is a DPS and different fights reward different types of jobs then selfish DPS always being first is just a messy and restrictive balancing decision. How do you make BLM ahead in FRU for example? but I will say if your yardstick for “diverse jobs” is edens promise we are discussing things that are functionally worlds away and you had to exclude the phys ranged to even make that point

Ok i hear what you mean about the danger to comp diversity and job options that could arise should selfish dps all be so strong you need atleast one to carry a raid with buff stacking. It's not healthy. I believe Realfoxy and I just have an issue with how the non samurai selfish dps feel really underwhelming for some reason. I can't speak for realfoxy but i just want skills like drill 600 potency, and flare star 400 potency after 6 fire fours/ two flares, to feel good to use in high level content. flare star would only need 20 potency to be as strong as two flares. drill feels great at lower levels but it should be equal in potency to standard finish on dancer. I'd also like high fire 2 to be a much stronger spell that interacted more with flare and flare star.

[Carighan]

but they should also be fine not ALWAYS being the top DPS because that’s equally unfair to every job that isn’t one of the 3 selfish jobs

Why?

Genuine question, why would that be as unfair as not being top DPS if you got no utility?

[Aco505]

Why?

Genuine question, why would that be as unfair as not being top DPS if you got no utility?

Damage buffs are not utility, they are a different way to deal damage. A NIN using Dokumori is simply creating damage by buffing everyone else but this damage is still there thanks to the NIN and the performance of all players involved in a fight. Utility is stuff like defensives or heals, either personal or group-wide.

For balance reasons, non-buffing jobs ("selfish") should not be the best at (r)DPS in organized and optimized environments. They are already very good or the best in essentially every other situation: in (Criterion) dungeons, in disorganized environments such as roulettes or in PF from Extreme to Ultimate, and so on. They don't depend on the party in any way whatsoever to produce damage and buffs only make them stronger. Someone dying doesn't affect their output unless it causes a wipe or messes up a mechanic. Their damage stays consistent and their only job is to make sure their biggest hits are in buffs.

For instance, despite the fact that it's in a weak state, MCH is pretty good in content such as Criterion or when progging a new Savage tier because others' deaths have no impact on the MCH's output, compared to DNC or BRD.

A "selfish" job dealing more rDPS than a buffing job would mean that they're dealing more damage in a target dummy than a NIN buffing 8 people in an optimized comp. This should never happen. We already saw this in ShB with SAM and in EW with BLM.

In theory, the "selfish" jobs' aDPS (which is the same as cDPS for them) would balance things out but in practice this won't be the case, particularly for BLM because while the job can save resources to deal a very good amount of potency in buffs, it cannot (and could not) do so all the time depending on the encounter. So BLM had to be buffed over and over to the point of becoming overpowered and additionally it is (or was) the only job that had to deal more rDPS than buffing jobs to compete damage-wise but this created the issue I explained above with my example of a NIN buffing a whole full party. It's more of a problem of battle content clashing with the way the job's damage profile works (before DT at least) and the devs applying band-aids to try and solve it.

TL;DR. "Selfish" jobs being high cDPS-wise is fine if they happen to be there, but never in rDPS (with the exception of BLM). Encounter type will also play a role (e. g. "selfish" jobs are almost always better in Criterion by default).

[Valence]

For instance, despite the fact that it's in a weak state, MCH is pretty good in content such as Criterion or when progging a new Savage tier because others' deaths have no impact on the MCH's output, compared to DNC or BRD.

Personally I don't really care if I lose raid buff party damage or not when progging a savage fight... The idea is just to learn and get through mechanics properly.
Unless you meant for first clears... then I guess? But then if you don't, next run will be cleaner and you'll get it anyway?