Rework Riase

[Carighan]

but people will not complain about RDM/SMN damage no?

Well most people don't erroneously believe that raise is a reason to deal less damage, but then hey, who am I to speak for everybody else? :P

[Rithy255]

even if you removed raise from summoner putting it in the same damage category as black mage is a joke with it's current design (apart from just removing rez).

I'm not 100% against removing rez on Smn/Rdm but with how bland class design currently is it feels like we're just removing more things unique about jobs, without actually suggesting anything to make jobs fundamentally play better, this is the issue with current balance as if something doesn't fit in it gets removed then people complain about jobs being samey ect.

Even if we hypothetically removed rez now people will still just pick whatever caster is A: Does the most damage B: Whatever is most fun, Balancing for the top 1% while ignoring the rest of the player base has been shown not to really work out well, because the game gets hyper DPS balanced with no job doing something unique now the meta is to just pick a job based off damage rather then also other things that a job brings to the table, such as rez, rez casters have always had a niche, but now they have to compete with other casters, which imo causes more issues with balance and complaints, because if smn is far behind lets say in 8.0 well now you don't even bring rez so why would you even want Summoner in your group at all.

I might be contrary to say this but I think FF14's "hyper balance" doesn't actually work, If nothing stands out then the meta is solely just based on the slight damage advantages jobs have, but it also makes very boring and static jobs as a side effect.

[Carighan]

I might be contrary to say this but I think FF14's "hyper balance" doesn't actually work, If nothing stands out then the meta is solely just based on the slight damage advantages jobs have, but it also makes very boring and static jobs as a side effect.

Very much agreed. Over the years FFXIV has sanded too many aspects of jobs off, resulting in quite tight balance, but also extremely bland job design. Look at Black Mages having all-instant-cast rotations now, being ~fully mobile. That's just wild.

[Rithy255]

Very much agreed. Over the years FFXIV has sanded too many aspects of jobs off, resulting in quite tight balance, but also extremely bland job design. Look at Black Mages having all-instant-cast rotations now, being ~fully mobile. That's just wild.

Yeah pretty much, when you have job design that loses what made the jobs special and feel different from another job in the same category it becomes easy to see at least from a gameplay perspective that jobs will lose out, even if you somehow make a job more viable at the cost of losing things that made it feel different, isn't always actually worth it.

Point is as well and I cannot stress this enough purely looking "meta" wise the only reason why you'd want a Black mage (over Pictomancer) is because your running a double caster comp that wants to maximise damage, but you can't also just buff black mage to be above Pictomancer or the issue will just reverse itself, which introducing Summoner/red mage to be up with BLM/Picto is going to cause a lot of people complaining that now that rdm/smn don't even have a niche or inversely if rdm/smn push blm/picto below it people will complain that blm/picto aren't doing enough, it's a constant cycle of number tuning complaints, which you can get close to "fixing" but at the end of the day a job will always be meta.

I'm not advocating for heavensward or even stormblood design here, because that's had it's issues in the past but surely we've had enough to see that the shadowbringers design doesn't properly work in a lot of ways, static and high end groups are always going to want you playing what's meta and what does top damage, while PF usually isn't against you running anything.

Not fully against the idea of removing rez, if people feel like its needed because more damage will be nice on rdm in particular for me but I also worry if a lot of the changes in 8.0 is just removing stuff that made jobs more unique which we've seen patch after patch, expansion after expansion, I think we need to have a look at seeing if jobs can bring more to the table and gain stuff that is more unique in 8.0.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

I agree. I have always been a strong believer that the caster rise is the reason why caster balance has always been bad in ff14. Back in the day smn had close to BLM levels of dps and had a rise leading to ppl wanting smn over blm all time. In EW smn was reworked and dps lowered closer to rdm but ppl still picked them over blm bc they both had a rise and rise is more valuable to most ppl than having a big dps numbers. Now we have picto who is doing really big numbers and does need a nerf but if it is nerfed to smn/rdm levels it become the next blm where it be left to the side and never be picked over a caster who has a rez. Caster balance has never been good bc of this button and its time for it to either be nerfed(make it a role action with a long CD) or completely removed all together so the casters can be more like the melee and be closer in balance. Also, add more complexity to smn plz!!! The job sucks and needs to be harder...the only ppl who like smn are the ppl who just want to turn off their brains...

[Carighan]

[QUOTE=MrJPtheAssassin;6636235]I agree. I have always been a strong believer that the caster rise is the reason why caster balance has always been bad in ff14. Back in the day smn had close to BLM levels of dps and had a rise leading to ppl wanting smn over blm all time. In EW smn was reworked and dps lowered closer to rdm but ppl still picked them over blm bc they both had a rise and rise is more valuable to most ppl than having a big dps numbers. /QUOTE]

Interesting game you played there. Which one was it, since it clearly wasn't FF14?

[Connor]

While I’m well aware that ‘just buff everything else’ is 90% of the reason balance is even in it’s current mess, I don’t see why Raise capabilities should be removed because Black Mage is underperforming. I mean, with the logic I’m seeing you’d think Black Mage was literally locked out of every raid tier purely because it didn’t have a Raise spell. Which, I’m pretty sure has (almost) never been a thing, even when during the times it’s been really bad lol

Maybe instead of removing Raise and punishing newer / less experienced players for something they likely don’t even have an understanding of yet (‘Sorry you’re dead but Raise is on its 120s cool-down so I can have an extra 10 potency on my filler attack’) they should look into why Black Mage sucks and actually address those issues? *cough* Pictomancer *cough*

Also what’s this obsession with somehow having all 22 jobs become completely identical perfectly balanced jobs that somehow all have identical maximum/minimum dps ranges? Why is it a bad thing if Red Mage and Summoner do less damage but have additional support capabilities like resurrection and healing? Because they won’t be as high dps as Black Mage? Isn’t that just more homogenisation?

[Zarkovitch]

Raise should be a cross class with a 3 mins cooldown. With this case caster should be more easy to balance

[Lorika]

Raise should be a cross class with a 3 mins cooldown. With this case caster should be more easy to balance

How to make healer even more useles in one sentence....

[Pip_Chick]

How to make healer even more useles in one sentence....

Delete healers, give everyone healing spells and a raise/Phoenix down. Problem solved.