Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Astronis]

I saw that they were changing it so Au Ra horns don't have light shining through them anymore, which is a huge shame.... it was beautiful! Light shines through fingernails, even ear cartilage, it wouldn't be inaccurate for it to shine through the edges of Au Ra horns too, no?

I believe what they plan to do is change the color of the subsurface scattering so it's not red. Light should still shine through to some degree, but without blood in the horns, the light won't be tinged red. I hope that's what they do, in any event.

Are they changing it so light doesn't shine through anymore? Or just adjusting it so it's not such a strong effect? I thought it looked nice on my au'ra's horns too but it was waaaaay overtuned. They have some serious problems with the lighting still in general.



Stood next to a window and my hair and horns went nuclear. Even the insides of my eyes and mouth catch light they shouldn't be.



Same on my cat. Glowing hair, and light coming through the head and lighting inner edges that shouldn't be lit.

Changing this would require something like ray tracing, which is not something they will do. I think we should be happy they managed to reduce the effect of it as much as they have. It used to be so much worse.

[noumen0nn]

It used to be so much worse.

Can you elaborate on this? Light shining through heads was not an issue prior to dawntrail

[Turnintino]

Can you elaborate on this? Light shining through heads was not an issue prior to dawntrail

It absolutely was. I have no screenshots, unfortunately, because -- well, why would I have wanted to commemorate that? But I would notice light shining through my character's head between their lips all the time, for example, even more glaringly than in Cheapshot's examples. In my experience, at least, it's much reduced now. But of course I'd love to see it completely eliminated, if that's feasible, because it's still jarring.

[Astronis]

Can you elaborate on this? Light shining through heads was not an issue prior to dawntrail

Not the most egregious example; I'd thought I'd took a screenshot when I'd seen it at its worst, but turns out I hadn't. In any event, you can see the light from behind my character's head shining on his lips and a tiny bit on the corner of his eyelids.

It happens because, basically, our character models cast shadows but they don't block light. If you manage to get your camera inside a player model you'll see light shining through clear and unfettered. Getting our character models to block light and cast shadows wouldn't be worth the effort. Ray tracing works for it, but real-time ray tracing is pretty new, taxing, and it can't be done with older video cards.

They've mitigated it a fair bit. I can't stand in strong light and make it look like my character is barfing Light anymore. It's still there but not nearly as strong.

[Turnintino]

Aaand it turns out I did have a screenshot from Prae that showcases the issue, pre-7.0 (my friend was in the scene with me and I wanted to show her, for reasons unrelated to the hideous lighting lol).



Like the screenshots others have shared, it seems to happen where there's any overhead light-source. We see it shine unobstructed through parts of the model that would, in real life, cast shadow, like my character's fringe or his upper lip. (You can also see the way it highlighted the neck-seam...)

Prae's lighting is still pretty harsh, so I imagine a comparison shot would only look marginally improved, but that's beside the point.

[Astronis]

Prae's lighting is still pretty harsh, so I imagine a comparison shot would only look marginally improved, but that's beside the point.

Yeah, it'll probably still be there, just not as strong. The location I noticed it the strongest before was in the Gold Saucer; there's some particularly strong light there that happened to be at the right angle to light up the inside of my character's mouth like a Christmas Tree. Standing in the same place now, I cannot replicate it.

ETA: My misfortune in mentor roulette is your evidence:
Still there of course, not as sharp. They softened the light I assume.

Actually fixing this issue would require so much processing power that it would be ludicrous to even try. No one is playing a ten year old MMO that requires real-time ray tracing just to eliminate a lighting issue that occasionally affects the inside of character's lips and and lower eyelids. The best they can do, which to me it looks like they did, is change the lighting so it it's not as common or as strong. Something that raises the processing power needs a little bit, but not to the astronomical heights ray tracing would require.

[Doopliss]

...They've mitigated it a fair bit. I can't stand in strong light and make it look like my character is barfing Light anymore. It's still there but not nearly as strong...

I'm sorry, man, but I just can't see whatever it is you're seeing; in no way to me does your character's case look worse than the example Cheapshot gave. I know it's not the worst you were able to find, but this is still an aspect I'm very used to paying attention to myself, and I haven't been unhappy with my characters' colors and lighting looking 'inconsistent' until now. To me, it feels like you're mixing up "rim lighting" with light "going through a character"--which it actually does do now.

While, again, like you, I do really enjoy how most lighting bounces off of my main's face considerably better now, how certain lighting unnaturally moves through parts of it--hair especially--has been driving me up a wall since the beginning of the update. I think we can't keep pretending everything is better or everything is worse; it's not good faith either way.


This is in my best friend's in-game house that I've gone in and out for for years. We still (unfortunately) haven't made any changes to it since Stormblood, but that means the lighting has been unchanged as well. This level of egregiousness never happened from just standing in front of their window before.

I also can't really get any notable, good rim lighting on my characters in GPOSE anymore, especially if I want to use a specific color, because things like this happen now:


Again, the single light source I used is pointed at her back. Why does a portion of it dye the tips of her bangs now...? Why does it circle around her collar? Ironically, I'm also much more certain the Adventurer Portrait lighting hasn't been updated now, because it doesn't do this.

Sorry for the long post, I'm sure people who have seen me post around can tell very clearly that this is just something that bothers me way more than it should. I miss taking GPOSES of my characters, though, and this has just been one of the few, extra things that make it more difficult.

Put under a spoiler for no reason other than I get embarrassed easily, and these aren't particularly good. These are just some examples of GPOSES I took prior to 7.0 where I know I used all three light sources, with one always being pointedly at the back. My characters were blocking light properly and have very little weird interactions with it.

I will say though, rim lighting on lips is weird. My ♀ Viera had the same issue as your Highlander, and you can even see it a bit in the screenshot I posted. However, I think the new "worst case" is a lot worse than the previous "worst case," and it should absolutely be fixed. Even if not by 7.1...

Also adding this to just pre-emptively protect myself, lol:
1. Yes, the GPOSES use shaders. I like very vanilla-esque shaders and mess with the levels myself.
2. Yes, I've remembered to turn them off for comparisons.
3. No, they're not against TOS. There's actually an official response within these forums regarding that.

[noumen0nn]

Not the most egregious example; I'd thought I'd took a screenshot when I'd seen it at its worst, but turns out I hadn't. In any event, you can see the light from behind my character's head shining on his lips and a tiny bit on the corner of his eyelids.

It happens because, basically, our character models cast shadows but they don't block light. If you manage to get your camera inside a player model you'll see light shining through clear and unfettered. Getting our character models to block light and cast shadows wouldn't be worth the effort. Ray tracing works for it, but real-time ray tracing is pretty new, taxing, and it can't be done with older video cards.

They've mitigated it a fair bit. I can't stand in strong light and make it look like my character is barfing Light anymore. It's still there but not nearly as strong.

Right, I see what you mean now. I had actually never noticed that this was a result of the same phenomenon. I think the reason why is that, while the lighting on your lips here for example is not accurate to how realistic light should work, it's very subtle and diffused compared to how it is now. Whenever I walk into somewhere with overhead lighting, like the markets in old gridania, my WoL's lower eyelids GLOW like lightbulbs while the rest of her face is in total darkness. It's subjective of course, but yours and Turnintino's screenshots give me the impression of "solid objects with janky lighting", whereas Cheapshot's screenshots look more like "hollow plastic figurines with light shining straight through them." I can't agree that they've mitigated it.

[Astronis]

I'm sorry, man, but I just can't see whatever it is you're seeing; in no way to me does your character's case look worse than the example Cheapshot gave.

....I know. I SAID I didn't have a screenshot of the truly egregious. The screenshot I posted happened to be what I could find to illustrate that this issue was happening in Endwalker, too. I didn't happen to sit around obsessively taking screenshots of all the examples of terrible ARR to Endwalker lighting, why in the world would I have wasted my time doing that? I surely hope you do see the only point I was trying to illustrate by posting that: That this issue is not new to Dawntrail.

Regarding hair, yeah, mine starts glowing too in strong light. It's weird and not ideal. Overall, I like what they've done with hair and making it sleek and shiny, but it came at a certain cost for sure.

Right, I see what you mean now. I had actually never noticed that this was a result of the same phenomenon. I think the reason why is that, while the lighting on your lips here for example is not accurate to how realistic light should work, it's very subtle and diffused compared to how it is now. Whenever I walk into somewhere with overhead lighting, like the markets in old gridania, my WoL's lower eyelids GLOW like lightbulbs while the rest of her face is in total darkness. It's subjective of course, but yours and Turnintino's screenshots give me the impression of "solid objects with janky lighting", whereas Cheapshot's screenshots look more like "hollow plastic figurines with light shining straight through them." I can't agree that they've mitigated it.

Yeah, this screenie is hardly the worst I had seen. I just...well, like I said, hadn't sat around taking screenshots of (mostly ARR's) atrocious lighting. It was simply a given. It's certainly going to still be a problem. It's not something they can fix without doing something truly insane. "Solid objects with janky lighting" is absolutely the goal for instances where this particular issue rears its head. But you'll always be able to find locations and whatnot that make the inside of your character's mouth glow. They can't stop it, just make it so it doesn't happen as often (or as obviously) by not using as harsh of lights.

Once you know what to look for, though, you'll be able to find this phenomenon everywhere in all kinds of old screenshots and new environments. Mostly I think they've mitigated it because they've fixed some of the really terrible ARR lighting and I can't go to the places where I noticed it being excessively obvious and replicate the old results. I wish I had a screenshot of what I am thinking of in the Gold Saucer, it was so strong. Now the effect is still there, but it's softer to my eyes.

In any event, they can't eradicate it. That's only possible with truly ridiculous performance cost.

[noumen0nn]

In any event, they can't eradicate it. That's only possible with truly ridiculous performance cost.

For sure, I'm not expecting that. To me there's two things I'd like to see happen: One, as I've mentioned, I think the lighting in general is just WAY too strong right now, and would like to see it toned down. This mostly applies to bright sunlight which makes pale skin glow to the point where you can't make out facial features, but it could also help with this issue; it's fine if they can't stop light from hitting my eyelids and lips, but I don't think said light needs to blaze like the sun. Two, and hopefully this is already happening, I think there's an element of this being a model issue for the characters. Almost everyone's eyelids got way thicker in the update, increasing the amount of surface that can catch light this way. My WoL's lower lip also got caved in, making more of it "point up" and thus be prone to the same issue. We'll have to see if 7.1 brings any improvement there.