Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[noumen0nn]

Curious what people think considering the upcoming changes to characters again next patch. Should the free fantasia quest reappear for everyone who completed it? It seems only fair to give folks a chance to make adjustments if need be the same as DT launch.

Agreed, they really should so something like this

[Loggos]

This is super late but I wanted to make a comparison of my character as well.

It's Au Ra(f) Face 4. I miss her a lot.

I'm most annoyed by her mouth area so I focused on that.

Face 4's change to the eyes (bigger pupils, less intense stare) bothers me as well but I didn't have time to make an in-depth comparison of them.

I think other people have pointed this problem out before though so I hope it gets taken into account.

I compared the DT model to the original EW model as well as to an edit of the DT model where I tried to paint the old mouth back in as well as I could.
(Unfortunately I don't have pictures of my EW and DT char in the exact same situation so I wanted to make this extra comparison.)

The edited one is not a perfect comparison (I didn't get the upper lip right 1:1, sorry ) but I hope it can still demonstrate the key differences.

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Baseline




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In the one below I made a "compromise" regarding her jaw to adjust the balance of the proportions to the new DT model.
(The lips are the same as in the other edit.)
It's less puffed up, like in EW, but the face has the same length as in DT (the EW one is slightly shortened).

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Comparison

In DT her cheeks are more puffy. The shadows at the corners of her lips are more pronounced, adding to the puffed up look.

To me she looks like she has a constant subtle "Hmpf"-expression.
She looks more "mildly displeased" than "fierce/piercing".

The lips are also a lot more curvy in every aspect: the philtrum, the shapes of the upper and lower lip, as well as the line where the upper and the lower lip meet.
(See gifs below for detailed demonstrations.)


(This is the most flattering lighting btw. It reduces the puffiness as much as possible, and yet you can still see it. In other lighting situations it is much more pronounced.)


Original EW vs. DT

(Ignore the DT eyebrows. I changed them after launch so they can't be compared to the EW eyebrows but I only noticed this after I was done with my editing. orz)












DT vs. Edit

[Loggos]

Au ra face 4 comparison

(Sorry for the double post but I can't add any more graphics to the first one.

Edit: Also, I'm sorry for taking up so much space on this page but I wanted to do these comparisons as thoroughly as possible and for several characters, hoping it's somewhat useful feedback if the devs really look at this thread.)

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Here is an example of the change "in action". The graphics update completely altered the way emotes look. Those are not the same facial expressions and I really miss the EW one.

The "puffiness" and somewhat puckered lips are also a lot more visible here. Same goes for the differences regarding the general face shape and jaw line.
This reflects the average ingame look a lot more than the CC images.





Schematic drawings:

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Edit: Viera and Elezen

Last one, I promise! :'D

But I was able to take some EW benchmark screenshots and made some thorough face comparisons for my viera and elezen, since they've been hit pretty hard, as well.

(I made a proper full-face comparison of my Au Ra too this time, so I'll include it as well.)


Viera (m), face 3

I'm not gonna say much and let the pictures speak for themselves because that's just a different face.
The mouth and the face shape are the biggest offenders but the nose and the eyes are different too.
(The latter lost that confident/piercing gaze. The colours of the lashes, the iris and the pupil have been muted so much the eyes now look "cloudy"/glassy/milky and lifeless. Please bring the original saturation back. The DT eyes are also slightly softer/smoothed down whereas the EW eyes' shapes are "sharper".)

The DT face doesn't look terrible at least (though I definitely prefer the EW version) but this is definitely not adapted "as closely to the original as possible".





Schematic drawings:

Elezen (m), face 3

This has to be one of the most egregious examples I have seen because not only is the new face completely different, it also doesn't look all that appealing anymore.

The mouth is such a downgrade. In top of that it has lost all its sheen (even though the DT face is wearing light lip colour!). The nose and the eyes have been altered significantly, as well, and are straight-up different features.
Also, the ears! I liked the old ones better, esp. the pointy tips.
Lastly, the whole face just looks terribly flat now. (And no, it's not just the CC lighting. He looks like that ingame as well.)





Schematic drawings:

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Au ra (f), face 4

Everything's already been said but here is a proper full face comparison to make it complete.






Schematic drawings:

[Einnecy]

Something that I still don't understand about this graphical update is.... why now?
Once upon a time miqo'te and elezen had hats specially molded to their ears, and miqo'te had gear made to accommodate for their tails. Not only do viera and brothgar STILL have no hat support, but we're also seeing less and less gear that accommodates for these racial features. Additionally, hrothgar♀ have botched rigging. We haven't even gotten more customization options to make the graphical update (and the free fantasia) actually worthwhile.

And this is all without going into the technical details that in my honest opinion should have been addressed before giving this game a landlord's paint-over. The game is being held together by two toothpicks and the power of God, and yet what we needed and got was a botched facelift? It all seems counter-intuitive to me. Change for change's sake. Wrong priorities.


In regards to the feedback we've gotten in early September, you cannot convince me these faces look the way they do because of "an increased number of polygons and the improved accuracy of normal mapping":

Please disregard the difference in hair colour. Every other option is the same between the two pictures.

I'm still here. Still mulling things over. Whether this is the push I needed to get into modding and learn 3D, or accept what is and move on. I like to think some of my feedback was heard. I hope it was. I hope the next PLL and 7.1 bring good news and our characters back home. But a large part of me will always think this graphical update was entirely unnecessary. I wish they had left the game alone. As I said in the beginning, there were so many things which should have been addressed first.
I don't know how relevant this is to the thread anymore, but I thought it was worth putting out there.

[jiangzai]

I saw that they were changing it so Au Ra horns don't have light shining through them anymore, which is a huge shame.... it was beautiful! Light shines through fingernails, even ear cartilage, it wouldn't be inaccurate for it to shine through the edges of Au Ra horns too, no?

[Cheapshot]

I saw that they were changing it so Au Ra horns don't have light shining through them anymore, which is a huge shame.... it was beautiful! Light shines through fingernails, even ear cartilage, it wouldn't be inaccurate for it to shine through the edges of Au Ra horns too, no?

Are they changing it so light doesn't shine through anymore? Or just adjusting it so it's not such a strong effect? I thought it looked nice on my au'ra's horns too but it was waaaaay overtuned. They have some serious problems with the lighting still in general.



Stood next to a window and my hair and horns went nuclear. Even the insides of my eyes and mouth catch light they shouldn't be.



Same on my cat. Glowing hair, and light coming through the head and lighting inner edges that shouldn't be lit.

[noumen0nn]

I saw that they were changing it so Au Ra horns don't have light shining through them anymore, which is a huge shame.... it was beautiful! Light shines through fingernails, even ear cartilage, it wouldn't be inaccurate for it to shine through the edges of Au Ra horns too, no?

The explanation they gave is that Au Ra horns don't actually contain blood vessels unlike all those other features, so the subsurface scattering is inaccurate in that case.

Stood next to a window and my hair and horns went nuclear. Even the insides of my eyes and mouth catch light they shouldn't be.



Same on my cat. Glowing hair, and light coming through the head and lighting inner edges that shouldn't be lit.

This is probably the most egregious problem with the lighting engine right now. Let's all pray our glowing lower eyelids aren't one of those mysterious "spec" items.

[Loggos]

Something that I still don't understand about this graphical update is.... why now?

I've been wondering about something similar. Why release an update that is evidently not finished together with a new expansion, something highly anticipated, highly scrutinised, that is supposed to draw lots of attention (incl. professional and consumer reviews) to your product and attract new people?

The graphics update is so inconsistent, it feels like it was a chaotic last minute assembly. Faces have been "updated", bodies haven't.
Some hair and gear textures have been changed, some haven't.
Lighting has been changed but the quality in old regions or houses often went down etc. etc. Everything aboutit felt unfinished.

I'll forever be sad that we didn't get the kind of graphics update they were originally working on when they talked about it the very first time:

https://youtu.be/18-F5uAyRgw?t=424

(Yes, I know this was "still in development and subject to change".)

Here they only updated the shaders and the face models on the "high res" side are the same as the original ones if I understand it correctly.
The characters look so good, all while retaining their unique features and personality.
That miqo'te is stunning imo.
(The skin textures in particular look so much better and more realistic than what we got. The eyes too. And before you say "that's not ingame lighting, that's their 3D program" or something: it doesn't change the fact that they chose those images to advertise what it would look like ingame according to their plans at that point in time.)


Even if updating shaders will not be a solution forever and at some point you'll have to work on the models, it might still have been an interim update that's consistent as opposed to what we got now?
If you """just""" improve shaders and have no modelling work to do then perhaps the quality of your graphics will increase more evenly across your entire game?

I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm sure updating shaders comes with its own technical challenges.
But I wonder if those are higher than the technical challenges the devs had to overcome wrt the actual update we got (including future challenges to build on the current update for further improvements).
Or if they just didn't want to stick with their original shader plan out of convenience (e.g., for lip syncing purposes, saving money bc why reinvest into FF14, etc.).

[eohippus]

I think loggos' viera is another good example of how much more gray/cool toned dark skin tones have become with the update. I'm not sure if its partially because of how overtuned the shine is on dark skin now, but its really a shame. xiv has never had the best color palette or skin tone options, but now (other than male mooncats bizarrely being a little bit more warm toned for some reason), it feels like across the board a lot of the little warmth that was there has been pulled out of certain colors.
(There's probably more going on than just the shine though because I just remembered that some of my friends who play dark skinned au ra with fantasy skintones also had their undertones completely change)

[Loggos]

Yeah it's a lot ashier compared to the EW version and more desaturated as well. Even though pre-DT ffxiv always had lighting issues when it came to dark skin characters at least the CC options looked more alive. You had a wider variety of true undertones and different levels of saturation. Now it seems like all colour choices are kind of washed out and their undertones are a lot closer to grey, minimising the differences between them.