What to manage as a tank?

[Mikey_R]

See while I don’t disagree with a lot of your offered suggestions it still leads to the problem of the original point where you said it’s bad to interrupt the flow of the rotation when I find that good. A rotation can never be good to execute on a support if there is nothing challenging that rotation on to be excited perfectly

There is a difference between interrupting the flow of a rotation due to an arbitrary mechanic like Enmity and something that can be planned around, like an extra ADD.

However, talking about enmity, I haven't seen a solution for displaying Enmity in a clear way that can allow you to effectively 'tow the line' on keeping just enough enmity to keep it, whilst still doing as much DPS as possible.

As for another point, why should a tank do the same level as a DPS? The only point this has even happened is WAR in HW, otherwise all tanks have had lower natural DPS than DPS. It also feel weird trying to compare a tank's DPS to a DPS' DPS and saying they are 'artificially capped'. You should be comparing a tank's DPS to other tanks, not DPS.

However, if you do want them to do DPS levels of DPS, and having their main role supress that, what about healers? Should they do DPS levels of DPS where the healing 'gets in the way' of them attaining that desired maximum? I know you don't as you have already described this as 'Healers getting it right', when, ironically, losing a GCD in order to heal is the lowest thing on the priority bracket, focusing on using the oGCDs first.

Also, if tanks can do DPS levels of damage, you will just bring a party of mostly tanks. They do the same damage as DPS and have much more survivability, which means there is going to be less burden on the healers. This is the main reason why tanks have to do less damage than DPS.

[Supersnow845]

There is a difference between interrupting the flow of a rotation due to an arbitrary mechanic like Enmity and something that can be planned around, like an extra ADD.

However, talking about enmity, I haven't seen a solution for displaying Enmity in a clear way that can allow you to effectively 'tow the line' on keeping just enough enmity to keep it, whilst still doing as much DPS as possible.

As for another point, why should a tank do the same level as a DPS? The only point this has even happened is WAR in HW, otherwise all tanks have had lower natural DPS than DPS. It also feel weird trying to compare a tank's DPS to a DPS' DPS and saying they are 'artificially capped'. You should be comparing a tank's DPS to other tanks, not DPS.

However, if you do want them to do DPS levels of DPS, and having their main role supress that, what about healers? Should they do DPS levels of DPS where the healing 'gets in the way' of them attaining that desired maximum? I know you don't as you have already described this as 'Healers getting it right', when, ironically, losing a GCD in order to heal is the lowest thing on the priority bracket, focusing on using the oGCDs first.

Also, if tanks can do DPS levels of damage, you will just bring a party of mostly tanks. They do the same damage as DPS and have much more survivability, which means there is going to be less burden on the healers. This is the main reason why tanks have to do less damage than DPS.

Yes I would healers in the same way because that’s how the healers used to work as well, my point that “healers got it right” was literally only in regards to GCD healing interrupting the flow of damage which I would change oGCD’s to accomodate this but this isn’t a healer thread

The tanks and the healers both used to do comparable DPS to a DPS when they had no responsibilities, but they lost DPS to perform those responsibilities, hell WHM had the second strongest AOE in the game behind flare in ARR.

Like I said doing a not totally disconnected DPS rotation that has bearing on your role as a tank (which is functionally non existent as an actual role at this point) to me is far far better than just playing with your cookie cutter rotation with zero bounds on your ability to optimise it to the max, it’s why tanks regularly get their best ever parse on the first clear, there is literally zero restrictions on their rotations

Oh and as for your question on displaying enmity I don’t know, this isn’t fully developed, this is my “general thoughts about what’s wrong with tanks”

[Terhix]

(...) it’s why tanks regularly get their best ever parse on the first clear (...)

Why the gaslighting? First you try to tell me that tanks in WoW still have to manage aggro (it hasn't been a thing in any meaningful way since at least WotLK) and now this.

Melee DPS also has "literally zero restrictions on their rotations" and I'd wager you wouldn't say the same about the role there, would you? While there is a single grain of truth to this, the reason for that is obviously that statics funnel gear into DPS jobs first, so your static tank with the same gear on week 3 as week 1 will be relatively worse when compared to a PF tank that won some gear in random rolls, which has nothing to do with tank rotations having "restrictions" or not, nor is it a problem that needs solving. In real world your first clear is never clean and everyone, tanks included, tends to perform better on 2nd and 3rd clear, gear upgrades or not.

[Supersnow845]

Why the gaslighting? First you try to tell me that tanks in WoW still have to manage aggro (it hasn't been a thing in any meaningful way since at least WotLK) and now this.

Melee DPS also has "literally zero restrictions on their rotations" and I'd wager you wouldn't say the same about the role there, would you? While there is a single grain of truth to this, the reason for that is obviously that statics funnel gear into DPS jobs first, so your static tank with the same gear on week 3 as week 1 will be relatively worse when compared to a PF tank that won some gear in random rolls, which has nothing to do with tank rotations having "restrictions" or not, nor is it a problem that needs solving. In real world your first clear is never clean and everyone, tanks included, tends to perform better on 2nd and 3rd clear, gear upgrades or not.

I’m sorry on the WOW front, I received bad information on that I should have checked

I mean melee DPS have to organise positionals and uptime, when I say best ever parse I mean relative historical parse and again it was more to prove a point, not meant to be taken hyper literally. There is no real restrictions to tanks maximal performance relative to gear for the tanks

[Terhix]

I mean melee DPS have to organise positionals and uptime

Tanks also have to organize uptime, and it's not like positionals change week to week on a boss.

There is no real restrictions to tanks maximal performance relative to gear for the tanks

I really don't know what you are trying to say. The only "restrictions" on DPS of any DPS job would be SMN or RDM having to rezz people. If your point is that tank rotations are simpler than melee DPS then yes, obviously they are.

[Lyth]

Enmity has always been just a workaround to the fact that tanks do less damage than DPS. Maintaining an existing enmity lead isn't really interesting or challenging. What is interesting is snap enmity, although that learning process involves Shadows of Meracydia eating your healers.

I will say, Snow, I find it a bit odd that you were so much against PCT having its motif system regulated more fairly, yet you seem so intent on regulating tank gameplay.

Tanks are naturally bound by encounter design, and if you want to really push tanks you just need better encounter design. That means more opportunities to position bosses, and more interesting mitigation patterns. The problem has always been that most encounters are designed from a DPS perspective, so it gets created with a fixed 'choreography' in mind. You really need to go a step further and give the tank the opportunity to figure out how to make that 'choreography' work out through careful positioning. I think the 'programmed return to center, orientate true north' is one of the worst additions to fight design.