Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Wolfie]

The real problem is, they were using a reasonable element system throughout nearly all previous FF titles, with fire <-> ice / earth <-> wind / water <-> lightning, but decided to change it for ffxiv. why? because...

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

[Rutelor]

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

[Starlord]

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

[Rutelor]

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

[Starlord]

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic". The Goal of the writer is to pull off an Epic story for the readers.. In a fiction story.. things like Elemental Wheels can be Creative in their own way.. like Wind can blow rocks/boulders around.. Because in the story the Imaginary Mind ( the Creator) makes up the world at hand and decides what 1 thing does better than the other, the way he wants to make it. Not make anything like a Realistic story or another person Imagination story.

So in all in all, Let the Creators do their thing. They have a goal and a mindset.. when they are focused on it... No one should distract them to do something else.

It's not hurting me at all because I'm happy the Creator is making something thats on his imagination.. and not because this person or that person says this would work better.. Giving ideas to the Creator is fine.. then he can make it the way he wants it with that idea, just don't go all crazy and be like it HAS to be this way or it will suck.

Anyways, thats all I have to say on this.

[Rutelor]

Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic".

I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

[Starlord]

I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's

Imagination has no rules nor boundaries, We the people may not write down, what our imaginations are saying.. but we all do have imagination to some degree.

in anyrate I can't wait to die 10000059890850930505 times to Garuda tomorrow!! :P

[Wolfie]

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

[Rutelor]

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

[Wolfie]

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

Should I pull the "you can't read" card too? I will, except I'm not going to be so passive-aggressive about it. I was talking about the people complaining that there are two elemental wheels/triangles now, and that there is no ambiguity. There is structure now.

Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

See, now I get to pull the "you're illiterate" card twice, because I clearly said that whatever it is you were trying to pull with this point is irrelevant. That means you get to drop it and not continue lecturing me in history, because whatever you're trying to say here is at best tangentially important to this discussion.