Fix the Elemental Wheel

[Rutelor]

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

[Soukyuu]

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

I played ffviii, ffix and ffx, so I am basing my opinion on those 3 games. And from what I remember, they all had the same elemental system.

It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

No, it's not. It might surprise you, but not everyone has played ffxi. I never touched it. Still, the elemental wheel(s) of ffxiv do not make sense to me, while in the 3 ff games I played, it did.

No, I don't see fire taking damage from wind, there are more chances of water quenching the fire than wind doing so. Else we'd use fans to quench fire, not water.

And even if you pull the "it's magic" card, it's not about realism, it's about intuition. The first thing to come into mind when fighting fire is water, it's elemental opposite being ice. The first thing coming in mind as opposite of earth is air (=wind) not... whatever it is now.

A well designed system is intuitive - you do not have to waste time trying to figure out how the system works, which should be the goal of any software developer.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

it's magic, we should'nt explain shit !

[Gentaro]

That's one of the things that were 100% fine in FFXI, but they haven't brought it into FFXIV because they tried to do everything different - which we all know failed horribly.

[Wynn]

Why does this matter?

How can one argue that the rules someone made up for how magic operates in their fictional world are wrong? Just accept it for what it is, a concept made up in someone's imagination, and let it go.

[Rutelor]

Why does this matter?

How can one argue that the rules someone made up for how magic operates in their fictional world are wrong? Just accept it for what it is, a concept made up in someone's imagination, and let it go.

I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

[Wynn]

I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

[Starlord]

First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

I agree with this 100%

[Andrien]

Water is a form of cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

[Rutelor]

Water is a form is cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

I'll wait for an official announcement that this is the case, or for empirical evidence to surface, that cure spells actually respond to an increase of water stats.

However, it seems rather arbitrary to me to make all spells corresponding to other elements destructive (while also being able to say of at least some of them that they possess some positive aspect in their constitution) and yet, single out water to be solely a healing element. If that was part of the reasoning, I find it inconsistent and, as I said, arbitrary.