Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[AllenThyl]

Well, I wouldn't presume to speak from authority on why NA Frontlines ended up this way, but it is an interesting observation to be made. How 2 different groups react very differently to the same situation.

I can tell you, it's entitlement. It's the natural conclusion of having a PvE game so easy, that even with 60% uptime and wrong rotation, it's possible to clear all normal content. Where improving one's own skill isn't enforced by some difficulty barrier along the way, but is dependent purely on personal motivation for improvement. With a story that casts your character constantly in an overly positive light, able to make friends with nearly everyone at every turn without having to do the actual leg work that is typically involved in fostering relationships. Add the Western, but especially American culture of hyper individualism, where only one's personal enjoyment matters at all, even (or sometimes especially) when it's to the detriments of others.

You can see it in this thread all the time. The author of a PvP guide is a "tyrant", "forcing their playstyle" upon others. The constant baseless insinuation that there isn't a "correct" way to play, which is true, if one doesn't have any kind of quality criteria to apply in the first place. It's the same argument you see when people defend single target DPS in dungeons even at lvl 60+. If you don't care about other people's time, then of course wasting other people's time isn't a misdemeanor. Seeing your teammates get obliterated by 3 people coordinating their burst (they don't even have to be premade, macros aren't rocket science to create)? Well, that's now reason to just be lethargic and not engage with the game itself anymore. Why? Because the game didn't go as this particular individual wanted their game to go (even though they are only 1 out of 72 people in the game). After all, so far, the whole game was solely about them, so why shouldn't the PvP portion of the game now not be about them as well?

I mean, take a really close look at the arguments especially from Mawlzy. They essentially boil down to "people good at this game, shouldn't play like they are good at this game". Why? Well because Mawlzy by own admission isn't really good at this game, and if others are better, that means they aren't the center of the universe anymore. It would mean that there are some things that Mawlzy could learn, that there is room for improvement, that the problem might not lie with someone else, but with Mawlzy. The people constantly complaining about being "oppressed" by premades, never give the impression that they actually have a proper understanding of the strategic intricacies of the game. My personal favorite was the statement that only "commanders" like the new Shatter map, and I would say that's true. Because Shatter is actually the most interesting map from a strategic point of view, allowing very fun and impressive plays to be made. Which you basically never see (I have seen exactly one advanced play being executed by my team in the last 2 years), because the general population of this game simply doesn't have either the knowledge or the skill the realize or execute these strategies. In fact, as you can see in Aidorouge's posts, they often times deliberately don't do something when it gets called out.

[FatCatEnjoyer]

it's almost as if people with thousands of frontline matches would actually be better at the game :O

[Xylira]

I can tell you, it's entitlement...

Ah yes, the entitlement of wanting to play matches with relatively balanced teams. I guess I sure am feeling an acute sense of entitlement in that regard.

I'm by no means amazing at pvp, but I would say I'm fairly competent. Regardless of how good I play as an individual however, no matter how good I might get, I'm still largely beholden to chance when it comes to Frontlines matches. Why? Because I only ever solo queue for matches. It's entirely up to chance if I end up on a team with other competent players that are willing to coordinate together on specific objectives during the match. That's not even taking all of the RNG nonsense of objective spawns and the whims of one team deciding to throw the match and harass second place, or first and second teams deciding to beat down third place.

Meanwhile premade groups have a distinct edge, being able to queue in groups up to 4. Which in the current PvP design meta, is more than enough players to execute full alliance wipes with the right jobs stacked together and LBing at the same time. That's more than enough to heavily sway the outcome of matches between kill points and battle high snowballing.

I'd much rather SE properly balance Front Lines PvP, but failing that I'd settle for FL being solo queue only. At least with Front Lines being restricted to solo queues it would make it harder to intentionally team stack and abuse meta comps, as well as on average ensure a more even distribution of competent players on each time.

[Bobby66]

Why not just queue with friends and make your own premade? Even if you made it solo queue that would not do much to improve the quality of players. MMR :may" work on larger DC and that is a big may because without a large and diverse player count an MMR system will just result in longer queues for the side with less players or still end up with skewed matches on lower pop DC.
This reminds me when I do FL and people complain about the teams comp like no DK yet no one who complains wants to switch. People complain about lack of leadership yet they themselves are uninterested in leading.

Why punish people that wish to play with friends? Not all premades are createe equally.

[Xylira]

Why not just queue with friends and make your own premade? Even if you made it solo queue that would not do much to improve the quality of players. MMR :may" work on larger DC and that is a big may because without a large and diverse player count an MMR system will just result in longer queues for the side with less players or still end up with skewed matches on lower pop DC.

None of my friends bother with PvP, and given the state of it I don't blame them. I have no one to queue with, so I just solo-queue. The alternative is for me to just not PvP anymore, which for how badly skewed so many matches tend to end up is becoming an increasingly enticing option.

This reminds me when I do FL and people complain about the teams comp like no DK yet no one who complains wants to switch. People complain about lack of leadership yet they themselves are uninterested in leading.

Which should have people questioning why the meta comp is so badly skewed toward certain jobs. And it's not just DRK, it's DRK+ that's the issue. You need someone to play DRK matched with people in the same group willing to play the jobs that accompany it the best, and be willing to follow said DRK around as support. Even just a competent DRK with a competent pocket healer AST is silly OP. Which surprise, works out perfectly for premade groups that decide to plan ahead and queue together with one of the meta comps.

Why punish people that wish to play with friends? Not all premades are createe equally.

Honestly this is a moot point, because the same argument could be made for why should solo-queuers be punished for having to face up against premade groups that abuse the poorly balanced meta.

[Mawlzy]

None of my friends bother with PvP, and given the state of it I don't blame them. I have no one to queue with, so I just solo-queue. The alternative is for me to just not PvP anymore, which for how badly skewed so many matches tend to end up is becoming an increasingly enticing option.


Which should have people questioning why the meta comp is so badly skewed toward certain jobs. And it's not just DRK, it's DRK+ that's the issue. You need someone to play DRK matched with people in the same group willing to play the jobs that accompany it the best, and be willing to follow said DRK around as support. Even just a competent DRK with a competent pocket healer AST is silly OP. Which surprise, works out perfectly for premade groups that decide to plan ahead and queue together with one of the meta comps.

The other point that tends to get overlooked is that, once one has graduated college, real life places restrictions on forming a semi-static. I often forget this is a 13+ game, partly because most of my friends here are closer to retirement than grade school. But given that using "fancy words" is apparently a crime and the nature of interactions one sees on Discord, I suspect a large segment of that community is extremely young. Which is fine, that's something we're all guilty of at some point. But I think it adds to the current friction so evident in this thread.

Agree that job balance (and the emphasis on burst and LB coordination) is the underlying cause of all this. The usual response from people determined to retain the current meta is "whatever you do, people will find a new cheese." I understand why there is a lack of faith in SE's ability to create a balanced mode, but even if they are literally incapable of accomplishing something that is standard for PvP games, at least changing it would alleviate the current boredom experienced by the majority of us.

I'm genuinely excited for 7.1. It's a win-win for me. By then, my leveling will be mostly complete. If there is a significant improvement in FL, I'll have enjoyable content. If there isn't, I'll have no reason to continue my role as a NPC in someone else's content. And honestly little reason to continue my subscription.

[Mawlzy]

That's the part that gets me the most, that even though premades were a thing on Aether/Primal/Crystal, they were a bearable enough presence all the times I used to DC travel before Dawntrail, especially if you learned when certain ones were queuing. (I've been on and against Olivia's team, would not enjoy repeating either experience.) But once I got locked down on Dynamis, it was just constant one-sided fights as a bunch of the premades from A/P/C not only flooded in, but seemed to be coordinating in such a way to actively avoid each other (can't possibly imagine why).

To me, the most revealing aspect of the current NA premade mindset is that none exhibit any interest in changing the status quo. In other words, perhaps the answer to "why did NA and JP evolve so differently?" is simply "because premades and the Discord lobby like unbalanced matches." The invasion of Dynamis tends to confirm that conclusion.

Olivia has stated she wishes the skill floor was higher on NA, and I believe her. But the only suggestion offered by premade advocates for accomplishing this (in terms of changes SE could implement) is to introduce personal rewards based on K/D/A/Damage. Who would benefit from such a change in the current meta? Right, the premade members hitting 22/0/105. And the nature of matches would, IMO, not change at all.

[Commander_Justitia]

But shortly after the meta became widespread, we started getting 4-man WAR premades whose sole purpose is to disrupt the DRK players.

I am doing that sometimes on paladin... it is insane how much the enemy alliances relies on the drk to lead, so if you stun him and prevent him from mounting up, then having 5s mount up penalty etc. You can keep the whole alliance there for 30s busy or even longer if you play it right as a single player. Just losing 5 points to keep 20 people busy is a net win in my books.

Paladin covering each other is actually pretty op, as both targets take 0 dmg in PvP when they LB (which doesnt work in PvE). With guard coming up in between like 3-4 paladin are basically invincible if they are coordinated going in as duos, then escaping with cover to a far team member. The perfect disruptor class.

[Mawlzy]

I don't have friends period (which makes it all the more tempting to just pay and leave), but I did have some FC mates than wanted to make a party and queue up for the roulette XP a couple of days ago and they were one person short of a full 4-man. Despite the fact I hadn't done my own roulette yet, despite being one of the more active PVPers that I know of in my FC... I stayed dead quiet in the chat until I saw they were in a match and *then* queued up because I did not want to be in a premade, or even risk being in the same match as people I knew lest it skew the results, including if we had ended up on opposing teams. (Because it does happen where you see enemies being a little *too* friendly when they recognize each other.)

While I'm sure some people get together just for fun and aren't any more effective or coordinated than if they solo queued, it would seem the majority of premades are doing it for "efficiency" and the fun factor isn't hanging out together, it's destroying the opposition as fast as possible because those 1000s KO/Win achievements aren't going to earn themselves. Or at least... I assume its for the achievements with these particular premades, because I doubt they have anything left to spend marks/crystals on, maxed their Series XP within a week, and they're definitely not out there looking for close fights (especially on Dynamis).
+++



I'll be 41 in October, but never considered my age would be a factor in why I want for some things while detesting others. Guess I'm just "old fashioned" by expecting a competition to be sporting instead of a slog, or that it would be a 24-man effort instead of a 4/8-man flex. I'll go take my medicine and nap now, terribly sorry for shouting at clouds.

If you were in my FC, I'm pretty sure you'd be the youngest member

[Bobby66]

None of my friends bother with PvP, and given the state of it I don't blame them. I have no one to queue with, so I just solo-queue. The alternative is for me to just not PvP anymore, which for how badly skewed so many matches tend to end up is becoming an increasingly enticing option.



Which should have people questioning why the meta comp is so badly skewed toward certain jobs. And it's not just DRK, it's DRK+ that's the issue. You need someone to play DRK matched with people in the same group willing to play the jobs that accompany it the best, and be willing to follow said DRK around as support. Even just a competent DRK with a competent pocket healer AST is silly OP. Which surprise, works out perfectly for premade groups that decide to plan ahead and queue together with one of the meta comps.



Honestly this is a moot point, because the same argument could be made for why should solo-queuers be punished for having to face up against premade groups that abuse the poorly balanced meta.

I mean it is an MMO. Playing with others is an aspect to that. CC is a thing for those that want to a more "balanced" game mode or was supposed to be that. It does have a solo queue option.

FL is supposed to be the more casual game mode why limit those that want to queue with 3 others?

Not on pre-mades are sweaty try hard groups. I am willing to bet a lot of money many just queue together for fun and some memes.

As for meta comps, and meta will always be present. So as you said if people are not willing pick the comp that has a higher chance at victory maybe that just goes to show people don't care that much as many seem to think no?