Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

Fantastic so we're going to wait another ~5 months after 7.1 for any major changes to Frontlines. Guess I'll be chucking it on the daily roulette back burner yet again.

Damage % and LB charge modifiers are going to do literally nothing to affect the balance of Frontlines as it is currently. I don't know why they're even bothering to tinker with a system that they're going to be allegedly overhauling the patch after. But then again I guess it wouldn't be Square Enix if they weren't taking half a year to implement even the most basic of changes.

Didn't we have something like this before? Might be more of a reversion than major change. In 5 months.

[Archeron]

Didn't we have something like this before? Might be more of a reversion than major change. In 5 months.

Yes they did a -10% damage modifier to Dark Knights and Warriors, probably a few other jobs iirc. They changed some LB's around and made SAM take longer to charge an LB. It really did absolutely nothing to shift the meta at all. The problem with Frontlines lays within the actions of each job. That is what makes or breaks jobs in Frontlines. They can toy with the values all they like it will literally do nothing without nerfing certain jobs into oblivion.

[Valence]

I must admit that while FL have always been a clown fiesta with outright broken jobs or abuses for various things in the system (remember the good old days of 8 ninja premades in SB all with BH5, where the other teams outright refused to leave their spawn?), this is the first time I see such a division in mentalities between two sides that seem totally unable to understand each other. I may have bitched a little in party chat yesterday when seeing I was partied with a premade farming everyone, so perhaps I deserved it, but still being told I have a main character syndrome by a premade DRK player was a surreal experience for sure.

But it's exactly what it is in a nutshell, from their own words, they play to win and will do anything to achieve that, and don't care about the actual experience to get to that result. I never cared about winning much, and perhaps that's where the divide lies.

[Mawlzy]

I must admit that while FL have always been a clown fiesta with outright broken jobs or abuses for various things in the system (remember the good old days of 8 ninja premades in SB all with BH5, where the other teams outright refused to leave their spawn?), this is the first time I see such a division in mentalities between two sides that seem totally unable to understand each other. I may have bitched a little in party chat yesterday when seeing I was partied with a premade farming everyone, so perhaps I deserved it, but still being told I have a main character syndrome by a premade DRK player was a surreal experience for sure.

But it's exactly what it is in a nutshell, from their own words, they play to win and will do anything to achieve that, and don't care about the actual experience to get to that result. I never cared about winning much, and perhaps that's where the divide lies.

This caused a rather indifferent Merlot to shoot out my nose.

[Aravell]

Before condemning premades, I think it's worth noting one thing.

'The only obligation any player has in FL is to help their team win'

Nobody is under any obligation to make sure everyone else is having a pleasant experience (as long as they don't violate ToS).

The group of people who will play any job and follow any meta with the ultimate goal of having the highest win rate will never get along with the group of people who just want to queue into FL for some mindless zerg fun and don't care whether they win or lose.

Neither group is more correct either, it's simply an irreconcilable difference between players.

[Mawlzy]

Before condemning premades, I think it's worth noting one thing.

'The only obligation any player has in FL is to help their team win'

Nobody is under any obligation to make sure everyone else is having a pleasant experience (as long as they don't violate ToS).

The group of people who will play any job and follow any meta with the ultimate goal of having the highest win rate will never get along with the group of people who just want to queue into FL for some mindless zerg fun and don't care whether they win or lose.

Neither group is more correct either, it's simply an irreconcilable difference between players.

Quite, that's how I reached the conclusion that putting those two groups on the same battlefield is the problem, hence the solution is matchmaking.

To Valence's point, this really is a profound mindset issue. And not all premades are the same in this regard. I'd argue the padders are violating the prime directive of "The only obligation any player has in FL is to help their team win." There are many regular groups on Aether who have their own little games going on that are not driven primarily by winning.

More fundamentally, I genuinely cannot fathom the win-at-any-cost premade mindset in the context of the current meta. When done efficiently, it is dull, repetitive curbstomping. Is topping the weekly leaderboard really a sufficient carrot to grind out this monotonous, one-dimensional playstyle? Or are we simply dealing with sociopaths who enjoy making others miserable? Having played EVE for many years, I'm well aware such people exist.

If we took this "obligation" to "help the team win" literally, then solo players would be banned, right? Clearly I would be helping my team win far more if I hooked up with the best DRK/RPR/DRG that I could find and queued in as a light party, rather than splashing about as a solo WAR with my pathetic 33% win-rate.

I agree premades have no obligation to ensure everyone else is having a pleasant experience, but some seem to go out of their way, both in chat and approach, to make life as miserable as possible for those not in their clique. Which reminds me of the old poker maxim: You can shear a sheep many times, but only skin it once.

If the premades need the unwashed masses to populate their favorite mode, at some point they might have to be a little nicer to them.

[Valence]

Before condemning premades, I think it's worth noting one thing.

'The only obligation any player has in FL is to help their team win'

Nobody is under any obligation to make sure everyone else is having a pleasant experience (as long as they don't violate ToS).

The group of people who will play any job and follow any meta with the ultimate goal of having the highest win rate will never get along with the group of people who just want to queue into FL for some mindless zerg fun and don't care whether they win or lose.

Neither group is more correct either, it's simply an irreconcilable difference between players.

My problem isn't about premades, in fact I have defended premades regularly in the past on those very forums against people that wanted to see them removed. My post history is here to show for it, and I took a lot of flak for it.

My problem is about the lack of care SE put into FLs, where the problem has been actually pretty serious for years and yet they're reluctant to invest any resources into addressing it, and how this allows for abuses. This all boils down to abuses, and while it was other things before, today it's DRK-AoE spamm abusers which is not only totally braindead, but also leaves no room for anything else if executed on the field.

[Mawlzy]

My problem isn't about premades, in fact I have defended premades regularly in the past on those very forums against people that wanted to see them removed. My post history is here to show for it, and I took a lot of flak for it.

My problem is about the lack of care SE put into FLs, where the problem has been actually pretty serious for years and yet they're reluctant to invest any resources into addressing it, and how this allows for abuses. This all boils down to abuses, and while it was other things before, today it's DRK-AoE spamm abusers which is not only totally braindead, but also leaves no room for anything else if executed on the field.

100% agree. Yet the current abusers of that lack of care will loudly proclaim the problem with the mode is the stupid players.

While massive XP rewards continue to exist, nobody is going to change the attitude of the bulk of the players, however hard they hit them with the cat-o-nine tails. I'm not sure we can influence SE either, but that's the better bet.

[Aravell]

Yet the current abusers of that lack of care will loudly proclaim the problem with the mode is the stupid players.

Both can be true at the same time. Yes, SE doesn't give enough care to the PvP content because FL problems tend to last for a long time, but that doesn't absolve the people who are lazy.

I can do over 1m damage on a solo BRD, I don't believe for a second that the MCH sitting at 0/8 with less than 200k damage dealt is that low "because of the DRKs". I think the people at the bottom of the leaderboard tend to be there from lack of trying, then they blame the convenient scapegoat of "DRK premades".

[Mawlzy]

Both can be true at the same time. Yes, SE doesn't give enough care to the PvP content because FL problems tend to last for a long time, but that doesn't absolve the people who are lazy.

I can do over 1m damage on a solo BRD, I don't believe for a second that the MCH sitting at 0/8 with less than 200k damage dealt is that low "because of the DRKs". I think the people at the bottom of the leaderboard tend to be there from lack of trying, then they blame the convenient scapegoat of "DRK premades".

I completely agree there's a stubborn rump of players who are putting in basically zero effort. I would be much happier if I didn't have to play with them. However, I'd suggest that group is not blaming anyone for their K/D/A/Dmg. They take the XP and run.