Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[PyurBlue]

This seems... fine(?), but is very weirdly roundabout way to buff (TBN) or nerf (BW/NF) a single outlier...

If you don't want target-scaled sustain to trivialize content, then you need to provide compensatory kit and context to the competing jobs and amp the difficulty of content to match (and, technically, the amp contribution of other roles each in compensation, which then obliges amping the difficulty of the content yet again)... or you just fix the scalars where broken instead of raising the house to deal with the single floorboard everyone trips on.

Of the two, the latter is the far less costly and far less error-prone.

I feel the same way, but the obvious solution of reducing WAR healing isn't liked by some. I don't really understand it but also I don't want to dismiss differing opinions. It would also be nice to move the discussion toward a consensus.

Healers aren't fun because they don't have a proper rotation.

DPS do, so if you want a rotation you can play that role. Turning healers into DPS is taking away from what we have so it's not preferable. More attack options would great for healers, but they should also remain healers.

Dungeons are just a small part of the game and expecting the game to be balanced around that and not higher end content is the bigger cope.

A small part in what way? A large portion of the player base participates in them often and they're the most accessible (in terms of preparation, you just queue, no need to find a party or look up guides) form of content we have.

Whatever the case, at the end of the day WAR is enough of a problem in dungeons that people are complaining about it.

Make healers fun, not at anyone else's expense.

As long as FF14 is a multiplayer game, party cohesion is going to be a design consideration. Classes that negate other classes are undesirable exactly because they exist at other's expense. It is possible to change the rest of the game to address and issue like that, but obviously that's less likely to happen than fixing the problem itself. It's also a bit unfair to people that don't want to see the game they like become something different.

I have my own ideas about what I'd like to see changed but I don't request things that don't fit with the spirit of the game. Reducing WAR healing in one specific context hardly seems difficult or problematic. If your concern is never wanting to reset a boss no matter what you don't even need Bloodwhetting. PLD has had that capability with Clemency for a while, but Clemency at least fills an emergency role that doesn't clash with healer responsibilities.

While reigning in WAR would do a lot to help dungeon healing, it's not the source of healer issues, and that is well understood. Yet, there is no denying that a self sufficient tank (or any role) is problematic for the game. Personally I'd like to remove self healing from tanks entirely. If it must exist anyway then keep it to a reasonable level so that healers can function as they were designed and as healer players expect them to.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't. Plenty of high end content where healers are needed generally. Let me know when healers are replaced in overall DF and PF by tanks, and not just people failing to normal mechanics or dying to enrage. Then you can say we have a problem. Until then, find an actual problem. Or don't and keep wasting your time. Up to you~. I'll continue to help healers out with having smooth runs though, the Healer strike is going so well after all that queues haven't changed one bit.

[Kabooa]

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't.

[MikoRemi]

You and me both friend~.

[PyurBlue]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

Dungeons aren't hardcore, but there is a difference between easy and AFK which is why dungeon difficulty was requested in DT. Dungeons also span levels 15-100 instead of a handful of level 90 duties.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

I haven't forgotten at all. Healer DPS uptime is 100% with all tanks as I've said before. WAR has nothing to do with DPS, it removes the need to heal, that's the problem.

find an actual problem.

I did and came here to discuss it. Dungeons are better when the tank isn't WAR, and even if the other problems with dungeons were addressed it would still leave WAR overpowered. If your solution to that is Criterion, we need that to a level 100 option at the minimum. And if I have to go into dungeons at all, it would be nice if they didn't feel like a chore.

Ehh.... Why does that have to strictly account for more of their kit than mitigation, snap threat, etc. accounts of tanks' kits, though?

So I understand your question, you're asking why healing skills have to account for more a healer's ability set than mitigation does for tanks?

If so I'm not implying that as a metric, but I do like the amount of healing options we have now and I'd like them to feel meaningful. Cutting a few for DPS would be OK, but I wouldn't want to lose most of them. When it comes to tanks, there are a lot of situations where they feel like DPS lite and in those situations they're not the most exciting classes. It's another issue to address.

[MikoRemi]

Dungeons aren't hardcore, but there is a difference between easy and AFK which is why dungeon difficulty was requested in DT. Dungeons also span levels 15-100 instead of a handful of level 90 duties.


I haven't forgotten at all. Healer DPS uptime is 100% with all tanks as I've said before. WAR has nothing to do with DPS, it removes the need to heal, that's the problem.


I did and came here to discuss it. Dungeons are better when the tank isn't WAR, and even if the other problems with dungeons were addressed it would still leave WAR overpowered. If your solution to that is Criterion, we need that to a level 100 option at the minimum. And if I have to go into dungeons at all, it would be nice if they didn't feel like a chore.

I mean if you want dungeon difficulty, there's variant and criterion. More is coming too, please look forward to it.

Removes the need to heal some of the time, not all of the time. Please learn the difference.

That's your opinion, WAR makes dungeons more smooth however, that's certainly a fact, and that's not a bad thing. If you hate it so much, find a DRK and bring them along as much as you want. WAR I'll consider overpowered if anyone can take WAR into the higher tiered content which the game is more balanced around and do it healerless, I can assure you even with WAR, people have issues. You can loop like others if you want though, it'll be just as much of a discussion as it was back in EW, amounted to even more self sustain~.

[Shurrikhan]

So I understand your question, you're asking why healing skills have to account for more a healer's ability set than mitigation does for tanks?

Yep.

If so I'm not implying that as a metric, but I do like the amount of healing options we have now and I'd like them to feel meaningful. Cutting a few for DPS would be OK, but I wouldn't want to lose most of them.

Fair. And same. Or, I wouldn't want to lose the agency it provides... but would be happy to see some of that compressed into fewer but more frequently usable and more interwoven/interactive actions.

When it comes to tanks, there are a lot of situations where they feel like DPS lite and in those situations they're not the most exciting classes. It's another issue to address.

Largely agreed there, too. I'd love to see more (frequent and integral) active mitigation and shifting priorities (with ways to actually act differently on them / in accordance with them).

[Supersnow845]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't. Plenty of high end content where healers are needed generally. Let me know when healers are replaced in overall DF and PF by tanks, and not just people failing to normal mechanics or dying to enrage. Then you can say we have a problem. Until then, find an actual problem. Or don't and keep wasting your time. Up to you~. I'll continue to help healers out with having smooth runs though, the Healer strike is going so well after all that queues haven't changed one bit.

You’ve already replaced healers in casual content.

People go on about savage clears without healers because when people complain about healers being useless in casual content people like you go “casual content doesn’t mean anything come back when savage is done without a healer” then that happens as well and you still deflect

In casual content literally nobody matters but the tank. You don’t need the healer, you don’t need the DPS (though they are at least convenient because they do more damage).

This is a problem across all content that you just refuse to see because you are a tank and so benefit from it. Tanks are the only role that matter right now, everyone is forcibly reliant on the tank in all content with no exceptions unless you want to gimp your DPS and the tank at no point has to rely on anyone but themselves except occasionally needing some DPS to pass savage DPS checks

Put yourself in our shoes. The tank role is so omnipresent in the game as being the most important and babied role in all content and it gets frustrating, especially when tank mains like you come in and go “nah I don’t see a problem”

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Ok, people can get smooth sailing through one part of the game if the WAR is paying attention. Oh no.

Yeah and if people complain about savage clears without healers, that's not something that happens generally which I've said repeatedly but then people like you don't seem to understand that. If the general DF and PF situation locks out healers on the daily, that's a problem. Literally any tank that isn't DRK with a brain can help themselves to a certain extent, but of course the higher content demands more which is where the healers come into play. Sounds a lot like you refuse to accept the obvious answer that's been repeated over and over, which is basically this whole thread in a nutshell.

The DPS matters in making the runs nice and swift, don't talk to me about that when I can see Heroes Gauntlet runs taking 36 minutes because both DPS are terrible and the healer is asleep, I can live through my own actions but if I was a DRK? Man, that'd be yikes. Good thing I'm not held hostage like that.

I've played every role, but my personality is tank personality. Taking charge and helping people not die. To say no other role matters just shows how little you value DPS and only hyperfocus on tanks when they do their job.

I've played me some bad roles like MCH and RDM. Even when I wanted to fix them I never wanted to fix them at anyone else's expense, but when I wasn't having fun I checked elsewhere. Not to mention the game is not going to go that direction so regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, self sustain is here to stay. I'll hope that healers and the not so great jobs get their rework, but if Pictomancer can remain where it is without getting nerfed despite a few people expecting it so that the other casters go up closer to its level, tanks aren't going anywhere. Stay mad or do something more productive, I'd recommend the latter personally. Healers just like every role is necessary for content, just because casual content can be done easily is a big nonissue. Go healerless in general PF with extremes or criterion or savage or ultimate, and tell me how that goes for you. Same thing I ask everyone but nobody wants to try it. It's almost like the general public have issues with content as is with a normal comp that trying a special comp would be a nightmare. Believe it or not.