Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Alice_Rivers]

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

So the tank is not part of the party?

Edit: Suggested reading.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580157

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6580074

[CKNovel]

So the tank is not part of the party?

It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.
Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.

Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.
The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.
Also why the broken state of BW isn't what makes healing boring.

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

[Terhix]

The debate has been why we should keep it "broken" and why it's not a problem to have broken niche things.

That's not what the debate is about, that is just your position.

Do you still aim to just score something by aiming for a slip of the tongue?

I think I scored everything there was to score, but let me score once again that you say that balance on trash packs doesn't matter, so every time you say you care about balance in dungeons you're lying.

[Alice_Rivers]

It is.
What I'm pointing out is that only tank requires healing in dungeon, the DPS don't even need a healer.

I've not disputed this, indeed I've agreed that it is an area to be addressed, in addition to tank balance.

Healers only heals the tank in dungeon, what happens when you have a tank which identity is to heal itself...?

I say "cool, we have healing as effective resist, neat idea", but that's what it should be. It should not be the tank not only negates 100% of damage taken but also overheals itself regularly. Similarly, when any job can solo clear group content (which the exception of Deep Dungeons that have achievements clearly showing they're designed to be solo-ed) synced, that is a problem that needs to be fixed. If all the tanks can do it then all the tanks need to be adjusted in addition to the content because I don't see healers or dps solo-ing synced content. If they were I'd be advocating for that to be fixed.

Yes, it's broken in specific, worthless situations where balance doesn't matter anyway, aka trash packs.

Why should the game only be interesting during boss/raid fights? I think it's a good idea to return to the days when packs could be threatening, then they could spit out vulns or have major damage attacks for tanks and healers to be aware of.

[CKNovel]

I think I scored everything there was to score, but let me score once again that you say that balance on trash packs doesn't matter, so every time you say you care about balance in dungeons you're lying.

Ah yes, be the judge of your own performance and attribute yourself your precious points, what could go wrong.

To say I don't care about dungeon balance is either ignorance or bad faith as I've been advocating to balance the dungeons from the start.
Trashpack are worthless and should be made meaningful just like in criterion where... Would you look at that, Bloodwhetting isn't broken!

Anyone who wants to nerf Bloodwhetting rather than taking a look at the content doesn't care about balance, they care about the healer ego.

Why should the game only be interesting during boss/raid fights? I think it's a good idea to return to the days when packs could be threatening, then they could spit out vulns or have major damage attacks for tanks and healers to be aware of.

That's what I'm saying from the beginning. Make dungeons more interesting by adding mechanics, things for the healer to do rather than DPS and healing the tank.
Nerfing Bloodwhetting won't fix that, it won't magically make healing funnier or make the healer use their aoe heals.

[Terhix]

To say I don't care about dungeon balance is either ignorance or bad faith as I've been advocating to balance the dungeons from the start.

At this point I don't know how, nor do I care how you mentally compartmentalize that image of yourself while repeatedly saying balance doesn't matter. Either it matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If you cared about balance in dungeons, and you say you do, and you thought that Bloodwhetting is overpowered/broken in dungeons, and you say you do, then the logical conclusion is to nerf bloodwhetting, whether or not that fixes healers or makes the dungeons engaging or not.

[CKNovel]

At this point I don't know how, nor do I care how you mentally compartmentalize that image of yourself while repeatedly saying balance doesn't matter. Either it matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If you cared about balance in dungeons, and you say you do, and you thought that Bloodwhetting to be overpowered/broken in dungeons, and you say you do, then the logical conclusion is to nerf bloodwhetting, whether or not that fixes healers or makes the dungeons engaging or not.

If that's your only logical conclusion, you lack vision, imagination and the ability to observe a design under multiple perspectives to fully understand the flaws and root of the problem.

Balance will never matter in dungeons, it's their purpose to be easily cleared while putting the minimum effort into it but it doesn't mean I don't care about the design&balance of dungeons.
Balancing jobs so they behave like good boys and good girls who stays in their lines is a mistake. Balancing dungeons themselves to make them more engaging is a preferable solution.

And since Balancing doesn't matter, it's good to have a few broken thing to break the usual pace of XIV.
My point is, seeking perfect job balancing will only sanitize the game and not make it engaging or fun. Tackling the balancing on the dungeon level can allow all jobs to be fun and engaging while not sanitizing the jobs.

Do you understand? It doesn't matter yet it doesn't mean I don't care.

[PyurBlue]

Personally, I LOVE getting Warrior tanks when I’m healing. It allows me to DPS more, killing mobs faster.

If you run out of OGCD's sure, though I find that to rarely happen if ever. DPS uptime is 100% reguardless of tank, WAR stands out because its self healing is so overtuned that by the time a WAR's HP is low enough to even consider any healing it jumps back to full. Other tanks at least benefit from a healer's presence.

And as a LONG time healer main who’s only recently started tanking seriously, I relish playing Warrior - it’s actually become my favorite melee job in the game, and Bloodwhetting is party of that experience.

I can understand liking the healing ability when soloing content, but that still breaks the game so it's not something that should be kept.

If people really want to keep Bloodwhetting as is then mobs need a tool to fight back against it. Amaurot has healing down enemies. If these were added to dungeons with increased healing down and focused on the tank that would go a long way to solving the problem. As long as the mobs causing the effect are around self healing could be reduced to a value like 1% and the tank would also benefit by having to think a little more about healing depending on what enemies are still alive.

In Dungeons, Normal mode and 24 man raid, tank buster deals miserable damages. Yet do we see a tank strike?
No, because tanks still have another role to fill.

FF14 is generally low difficulty. Things like TB's are weak in a lot of content and I'd like that to change. It won't address WAR making healers redundant in dungeons though.

Go back to my 24 man raid argument where Warrior isn't broken yet healing is still boring. I haven't seen a counter-argument yet.

Alliance raids aren't dungeons. Within dungeons a WAR tank makes the healer role redundant. That's a significant and game breaking problem that can't be fixed by making changings to alliance raids. Alliances also tend to focus more on party wide damage while dungeons do not. You're suggesting to change things to make dungeons the same way, but that only prompts me to ask why take away variety for the sake of a clearly overpowered class? Dungeon pulls are where a party member, the tank, takes a large constant stream of damage. It's a situation mostly unique to dungeons and it's a specific kind of healing that a healer can learn to engage in. Why take it away and double down on the game destroying its own mechanics? I see no good coming from it.

[Terhix]

If that's your only logical conclusion, you lack vision, imagination and the ability to observe a design under multiple perspectives to fully understand the flaws and root of the problem.

I'll grant you that, your solution to one job having one ability that blatantly overperforms on multi-pack pulls in dungeons being removing multi-pack pulls from the dungeons altogether so that using aoe abilities on any job, Warrior included, is a DPS loss, is truly imaginative.

[CKNovel]

Alliance raids aren't dungeons. Within dungeons a WAR tank makes the healer role redundant. That's a significant and game breaking problem that can't be fixed by making changings to alliance raids. Alliances also tend to focus more on party wide damage while dungeons do not. You're suggesting to change things to make dungeons the same way, but that only prompts me to ask why take away variety for the sake of a clearly overpowered class? Dungeon pulls are where a party member, the tank, takes a large constant stream of damage. It's a situation mostly unique to dungeons and it's a specific kind of healing that a healer can learn to engage in. Why take it away and double down on the game destroying its own mechanics? I see no good coming from it.

24 man raid are casual battle content. To not take it in account would be cherry-picking, exactly what this thread has been doing.
If you're still unhappy with it, then take in account criterion dungeon or deep dungeon like Eureka Orthos.

Take all data or take none, don't cherry-pick.

I don't get your point about "variety". Fates and Maps exist and use the exact same pattern. We would sacrifice nothing but gain more.