Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[PyurBlue]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

Dungeons aren't hardcore, but there is a difference between easy and AFK which is why dungeon difficulty was requested in DT. Dungeons also span levels 15-100 instead of a handful of level 90 duties.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

I haven't forgotten at all. Healer DPS uptime is 100% with all tanks as I've said before. WAR has nothing to do with DPS, it removes the need to heal, that's the problem.

find an actual problem.

I did and came here to discuss it. Dungeons are better when the tank isn't WAR, and even if the other problems with dungeons were addressed it would still leave WAR overpowered. If your solution to that is Criterion, we need that to a level 100 option at the minimum. And if I have to go into dungeons at all, it would be nice if they didn't feel like a chore.

Ehh.... Why does that have to strictly account for more of their kit than mitigation, snap threat, etc. accounts of tanks' kits, though?

So I understand your question, you're asking why healing skills have to account for more a healer's ability set than mitigation does for tanks?

If so I'm not implying that as a metric, but I do like the amount of healing options we have now and I'd like them to feel meaningful. Cutting a few for DPS would be OK, but I wouldn't want to lose most of them. When it comes to tanks, there are a lot of situations where they feel like DPS lite and in those situations they're not the most exciting classes. It's another issue to address.

[Supersnow845]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't. Plenty of high end content where healers are needed generally. Let me know when healers are replaced in overall DF and PF by tanks, and not just people failing to normal mechanics or dying to enrage. Then you can say we have a problem. Until then, find an actual problem. Or don't and keep wasting your time. Up to you~. I'll continue to help healers out with having smooth runs though, the Healer strike is going so well after all that queues haven't changed one bit.

You’ve already replaced healers in casual content.

People go on about savage clears without healers because when people complain about healers being useless in casual content people like you go “casual content doesn’t mean anything come back when savage is done without a healer” then that happens as well and you still deflect

In casual content literally nobody matters but the tank. You don’t need the healer, you don’t need the DPS (though they are at least convenient because they do more damage).

This is a problem across all content that you just refuse to see because you are a tank and so benefit from it. Tanks are the only role that matter right now, everyone is forcibly reliant on the tank in all content with no exceptions unless you want to gimp your DPS and the tank at no point has to rely on anyone but themselves except occasionally needing some DPS to pass savage DPS checks

Put yourself in our shoes. The tank role is so omnipresent in the game as being the most important and babied role in all content and it gets frustrating, especially when tank mains like you come in and go “nah I don’t see a problem”

[Shurrikhan]

Healers aren't fun because they don't have a proper rotation.

DPS do, so if you want a rotation you can play that role. Turning healers into DPS is taking away from what we have so it's not preferable. More attack options would great for healers, but they should also remain healers.

Ehh.... Why does that have to strictly account for more of their kit than mitigation, snap threat, etc. accounts of tanks' kits, though?

Lest this get confusing, my issue with WAR is that it's typically straight-up overpowered, frequently getting a third or half more of its "perk" at an insignificant loss elsewhere or none at all. That it leaves no room for healers to make full use of their kits sucks, but that can also be solved by...

• Increasing the healing requirements (though as challenge increases the relative advantage of bringing a Warrior to its advantaged contexts also increases; while this isn't linear, under present scaling, it would take far beyond Savage Criterion levels of incoming damage for its self-healing in AoE to fall to merely competitive with other jobs' analogs), or
• giving healers alternate spenders for those healing resources (though, again, that then makes Warriors all the more advantageous since the excess healing could be converted into something useful).

I just don't see why any of that would ever be mutually exclusive to changing Warrior's "identity" from simply "typically best at everything save maybe theoretical maximum DPS" to something healthier and more gameplay-related.

And, to be clear, I wouldn't mind a self-sufficient tank if on average what rDPS could be indirectly gained through that self-sufficiency came at roughly equal cost to the given tank's own damage, with turtling being only situationally optimal. I'd love to see more versatility among tank outputs, more risk-reward, more interplay between tanks' defensives and healers' critical offensive opportunities (e.g., the GCD in which to reset DoTs) and vice versa, etc. It just sucks that right now we're seemingly barred from using that for gameplay just because some modern Warriors want to claim it as a unique perk even while showing nothing but contempt for any possibility of ever actually paying for its value.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

I don't think anyone's arguing that. But consider: Would you be happier with more opportunities to meaningfully use mitigation, or fewer? Would you be happier with more opportunities to coordinate with your cotank, or fewer? Would you happier with more opportunities to position bosses to the advantage of your raid, or fewer? If the first on any of those, how would you feel if precedent abruptly shifted to there being no tank swaps, no ability to move bosses, and CDs so much fewer that scheduling is pathetically lenient... and someone then just told you to just accept that new Blue DPS reality? Should there by no room for critique of such changes?

As for the idea that healers arent fun simply because they lack a rotation, I don't think a strict "rotation" plays significantly into the experience of any of my favorite healers or even tanks. Heck, it's barely even the main attractor among DPS in my favorite MMOs. I know XIV would condition us to believe otherwise, but there can be more to gameplay than just rotational loops and macrorotational ("raid buffs") cycles.

[whiskeybravo]

WAR makes the job of healers unfun, it's as simple as that just admit you don't care about healers and enjoy being op in dungeons. Trying to run around this is dumb.
Seeing cope about WAR aoe heal not being a problem is annoying just say you find it fun and don't care.

WAR aoe is heal is fun and every tank should have access to it. Healers can just cope with not having anything to do 12 seconds per minute.

[Ramiee]

Dungeons are just a small part of the game and expecting the game to be balanced around that and not higher end content is the bigger cope. Although yes, I do in fact like being able to keep a party alive when the healer decides to eat dirt in easy content.

Here's all I needed, you being honest that you don't care and find it fun to have a self heal benediction and you want to do the healers job. The rest is just fluff and self justification for playing a job that breaks the trinity balance. I don't actually really care either if I was able to replace tanks as a DPS id do it too.

[MikoRemi]

Here's all I needed, you being honest that you don't care and find it fun to have a self heal benediction and you want to do the healers job. The rest is just fluff and self justification for playing a job that breaks the trinity balance. I don't actually really care either if I was able to replace tanks as a DPS id do it too.

You can be sad about it all you want, doesn't change anything. Meanwhile in content that actually matters, yknow on the higher end? Yeah, it's a good general use cooldown that doesn't break anything. I don't care about silly opinions not rooted in reality though yes. Go ahead and just try a healerless run in an average PF party of EX1 as a WAR and tell me how that goes though~. If you can somehow heal all of that without a cotank doing all the healing or needing some summoners and red mages, I won't believe it.

[Zairava]

I mean if you want dungeon difficulty, there's variant and criterion. More is coming too, please look forward to it.

Removes the need to heal some of the time, not all of the time. Please learn the difference.

That's your opinion, WAR makes dungeons more smooth however, that's certainly a fact, and that's not a bad thing. If you hate it so much, find a DRK and bring them along as much as you want. WAR I'll consider overpowered if anyone can take WAR into the higher tiered content which the game is more balanced around and do it healerless, I can assure you even with WAR, people have issues. You can loop like others if you want though, it'll be just as much of a discussion as it was back in EW, amounted to even more self sustain~.

Do you live under a rock? M4S was cleared without a healer in week 2 and the thread has existed on it since roughly the same time lmao

[MikoRemi]

Do you live under a rock? M4S was cleared without a healer in week 2 and the thread has existed on it since roughly the same time lmao

Do you live under a rock? Does the PF generally clear without a healer? Does the average party in PF clear without a healer? No? Most still need a standard comp as a general thing? Try harder next time.

[Supersnow845]

Do you live under a rock? M4S was cleared without a healer in week 2 and the thread has existed on it since roughly the same time lmao

That doesn’t count to them

Their (impressively high barrier) for where they would consider tanks to be out of line is if the M4S healerless clear becomes standard PF strats. Casual content not requiring a healer, savage being possible to clear without a healer, even ultimate being cleared without a healer is irrelevant to them, they only see a problem if healers are actively being locked out of all content

It’s pointless arguing with them, because they see the problem they just pretend they don’t because they are in the beneficiary position

[Vinter]

That doesn’t count to them

Their (impressively high barrier) for where they would consider tanks to be out of line is if the M4S healerless clear becomes standard PF strats. Casual content not requiring a healer, savage being possible to clear without a healer, even ultimate being cleared without a healer is irrelevant to them, they only see a problem if healers are actively being locked out of all content

It’s pointless arguing with them, because they see the problem they just pretend they don’t because they are in the beneficiary position

Unironically yes. The game isn't balanced for the 1% savage raiders, it's balanced for the 99% of casuals who just play for fun. It might sound harsh but y'all are a minority of players and therefore don't actually matter.