Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Ramiee]

There's a whole lot of opinion having in this thread about why Bloodwhetting is overpowered in dungeons when the real test is clearly how they do in savage/ex content.

Oh, wait, this just in. Every tank is good and fine and they're all viable. Stop complaining about not having to heal a warrior in a dungeon and enjoy the glory of being able to do more damage.

In savage WAR out paces other tank in healing by nearly double. This isn't just equilibrium, bloodwhetting is strong self heal under raid buffs and if you do it with fell cleave spam. I think war is op in savage compared to other tanks but only because of holmgang having the lowest cd.

Also dungeons are a part of the game and should feel fun for all parties, if healers aren't having fun that's a problem that should be fix. Just cap bloodwhetting's aoe to like 3-4 mobs it would still be strong but if you want a full heal you'd need to use decimate at least twice.

[CKNovel]

In savage WAR out paces other tank in healing by nearly double. This isn't just equilibrium, bloodwhetting is strong self heal under raid buffs and if you do it with fell cleave spam. I think war is op in savage compared to other tanks but only because of holmgang having the lowest cd.

Also dungeons are a part of the game and should feel fun for all parties, if healers aren't having fun that's a problem that should be fix. Just cap bloodwhetting's aoe to like 3-4 mobs it would still be strong but if you want a full heal you'd need to use decimate at least twice.

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

[aiqa]

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

FFlogs healing statistics do not include overhealing. So if WAR is overhealing a lot now, it will pull ahead even more if incoming damage is ever increased.

[Ramiee]

In savage, mitigation > healing.
Bloodwhetting is only 10% of WAR's healing but Shake it off is 30% of WAR's healing, Damnation is around 15%. Due to their regen nature, they overheal a lot.
Out of 50% of Warrior's self healing, 50% is overhealing.

Paladin has a lot of overhealing but way less than WAR, making its effective healing more valuable.

Its already got fine mitigation the healing is the cherry on top, bloodwhetting has 10% damage resistance and a barrier as well as strong healing. People really undervalue the heal in raid content, yes its not as op as in dungeons but its still really strong even in raids thats less stress on the healers to do more healing so they can deal more damage and finish the raid faster. Healing is core to WAR damnation has made this pretty clear at this point the only thing I want changed with war is bloodwhetting to be capped in aoe and holmgang or the other invuns having more similar cds. I don't want all the self healing gone from WAR i just want it to be more reasonable for healers in other content.

[CKNovel]

Its already got fine mitigation the healing is the cherry on top, bloodwhetting has 10% damage resistance and a barrier as well as strong healing. People really undervalue the heal in raid content, yes its not as op as in dungeons but its still really strong even in raids thats less stress on the healers to do more healing so they can deal more damage and finish the raid faster. Healing is core to WAR damnation has made this pretty clear at this point the only thing I want changed with war is bloodwhetting to be capped in aoe and holmgang or the other invuns having more similar cds. I don't want all the self healing gone from WAR i just want it to be more reasonable for healers in other content.

The healing is good, I'm not saying it's bad. But it's clearly overrevaluated, it's good and comfort, not "really strong". It just shines in very rare spot where a boss auto attacks a lot which happens extremely rarely. Bosses rarely do sustained damage on tanks.
You can do the same thing you describe with so many other tools, Paladin passive sustain, other tank single CDs, Sage's Soteria...

The problem is that you think this is exclusive to the WAR while it's not, just because it can top itself against a worthless trash pack.
Even if you capped Bloodwhetting nothing would change. Dungeon damage is too low and Bloodwhetting single target heal will still amount to 13~20k per hit, that's still far enough to regen 40% of their max HP. Combine that with the rest of the kit and Warrior is still unkillable.

Nerfing Warrior is slowing down cars to preserve a damaged road instead of repairing that road. Dungeon aren't suited for the healers kit. You can never press Philosophia, Physis, Panhaima, Pneuma or Holos and you're still going to wipe the floor with that dungeon, even when healing a DRK.

[Ramiee]

The problem is that you think this is exclusive to the WAR while it's not, just because it can top itself against a worthless trash pack.
Even if you capped Bloodwhetting nothing would change. Dungeon damage is too low and Bloodwhetting single target heal will still amount to 13~20k per hit, that's still far enough to regen 40% of their max HP. Combine that with the rest of the kit and Warrior is still unkillable.

Nope I think PLD self healing on the sword combo is stupid and that aurora shouldn't have 2 stacks.
I never said this was a WAR exclusive problem, it's just that WAR is the most egregious.
Dungeon damage is something everyone argues about and can never find common ground on so I just don't talk about it. I simply think capping aoe bloodwhetting is the easiest way to make it less egregious, really this problem won't go away until the tank role is reworked to be more balanced around working with healers.
The trinity is beyond fucked and literally every role in this game needs reworks because there is zero synergy in anything that isn't an ultimate raid.

[CKNovel]

Nope I think PLD self healing on the sword combo is stupid and that aurora shouldn't have 2 stacks.
I never said this was a WAR exclusive problem, it's just that WAR is the most egregious.
Dungeon damage is something everyone argues about and can never find common ground on so I just don't talk about it. I simply think capping aoe bloodwhetting is the easiest way to make it less egregious, really this problem won't go away until the tank role is reworked to be more balanced around working with healers.

There's no trinity in dungeon we've already established that.
You can complete dungeons with 4 DPS, 4 healers or 4 tanks. The trinity isn't broken it's simply not applied, if it was broken it would've been in all content.

That's like saying your car is broken because the road is muddy. Obviously, it makes no sense, since on any other terrain your car functions fine.

Removing a charge on Aurora will just make it so you'll use 11 Aurora in 10 minutes instead of 12. You can try by yourself WAR's healing on single target the compare it to pack damage. You'll quickly figure that the problem will remain.
I'm just here to point the root cause. Queue as a healer in Heroes Gauntlet, you'll quickly understand that healers were in this state far before tank sustain.

[Ramiee]

There's no trinity in dungeon we've already established that.
You can complete dungeons with 4 DPS, 4 healers or 4 tanks. The trinity isn't broken it's simply not applied, if it was broken it would've been in all content.

That's like saying your car is broken because the road is muddy. Obviously, it makes no sense, since on any other terrain your car functions fine.

Removing a charge on Aurora will just make it so you'll use 11 Aurora in 10 minutes instead of 12. You can try by yourself WAR's healing on single target the compare it to pack damage. You'll quickly figure that the problem will remain.
I'm just here to point the root cause. Queue as a healer in Heroes Gauntlet, you'll quickly understand that healers were in this state far before tank sustain.

I am aware that the trinty has been fucked for years, in my scenarios im writing out its imagining a world where CBU3 gave a shit. Ideally like all trinty based MMOs Tanks would melt without healers DPS/Healers would melt without a tank and Healer/Tanks would melt without DPS. WARs current state is overtuned as fuck in dungeons its undeniable, its far more balanced in Raids won't disagree there I played WAR in Extreme/P4-7s and it wasn't immortal (though Holmgang's timer is completely broken.)
I don't even need to queue in Heroes to see how broken the trinty is any Stormblood dungeon with a WAR makes that clear, currently every single role needs to be reworked to either remove the trinity system completely or make it matter again. Hell I unlike most people would be fine with WARs current life steal to be on a longer CD either 60-90 seconds but that amount of healing every 25 seconds is something I can't see as justifyable unless the tank loses something such as damage in using it.
I think you just have a fundemental disagreement with how I like Trinty MMOs balanced, I like healers having sacrificeless heals while tanks and DPS have heals they have to sacrifice damage for like clemency, I don't like insane heals in aoe with no drawbacks, I felt this way about DRK in SB which is something a bunch of people would disagree with me about.

[CKNovel]

A hugely overtuned job is the most used job. I am so surprised.

Warrior is a simple job that offers a good and reliable kit, it's often the first pick for tanks.
Not because it's broken, there's been situations where WAR has been on the lower end but still insanely popular.

We?

You can deny it if you want. It's proven you don't need a tank, dps or a healer to clear dungeons.
You can refer yourself to my analysis of damage distribution in dungeon.

The game enforces trinity in roulettes, so it's obviously intended. And something can be broken in specific content.
And possible is not the same as optimal. Generally people consider speed the metric to optimize dungeons. The runs I've seen with a full dps team were very far from optimal.

The game doesn't enforce trinity, even when queueing with random, it's an arbitraty rule to have the safest composition. There's always a healer in Guildhests yet they're completely useless in most of the guildhest.
The 100 fastest dungeon not including healers is a lie, you can find healers in top 100 of Deadwalk and Tender valley. Even then, you gain 1 to 2 minutes which is pointless unless you need to farm it hundreds of times, which isn't the case.
Speed alone doesn't define an optimal way to farm, if a DPS dies your run suddenly becomes suboptimal.

If your car can only move forward on completely flat roads, and struggles to a halt when there is a little mud on the road, I would very much call it broken.

That's a completely different situation, what's your point.

Hell I unlike most people would be fine with WARs current life steal to be on a longer CD either 60-90 seconds but that amount of healing every 25 seconds is something I can't see as justifyable unless the tank loses something such as damage in using it.

You could put it on 180s CD healers would remain boring in dungeon.
The rest of the WAR kit is perfectly enough to maintain the WAR alive, do you want to nerf them as well and make WAR a joke in other content than dungeons?

[Ramiee]

You could put it on 180s CD healers would remain boring in dungeon.
The rest of the WAR kit is perfectly enough to maintain the WAR alive, do you want to nerf them as well and make WAR a joke in other content than dungeons?

You are hyper fixated on other roles when I am talking about Tanks not healers. Bloodbath is balanced around being 90 seconds I don't know why WAR can't have its weaponskill self heals attached to a 60-90 second CD and replace the short CD healing effect with something else. You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?
I just think they should cap bloodwhettings aoe healing in dungeons is that really going to make it unplayable, I really don't get your train of thought.