Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[ApolloGenX]

As far as I'm concerned it is not a necessity that tanks must suck in order for healing to be needed, or is it your opinion that tanks needing healer is by definition sucking? As someone said somewhere and I agreed "tanks should be hard to kill" but not impossible. I've done immortality in Star Trek Online in the highest level content that game had and yeah, it was fun for a while but then it got old and boring, it's a big part of why I don't play the game anymore despite being a massive (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT era) Trek fan.

If we intend to keep the healing role, no job should be immortal, it's antithetical to having healers.

If they intend to keep healing, then I would suggest they get more creative then heal/shield for x.

It's not like the abilities wars have couldnt be given to healers to use on tanks. The complete lack of creativity for healers is why healing sicks...not because of tanks.

[Alice_Rivers]

Healing sucks fundamentally because healing isn't required in some 70+% of content, if I spend entire duties not healing I might as well go play a DPS. Now, why am I not healing? Healing isn't required. Why is healing not required? Could it have something to do with the principle recipient of healing overhealing themselves already? It just might. I don't have this problem with DRK, more often that not when I pull a DRK in roulettes I get to heal and let me tell you what, that is the highlight of my playtime - I actually get to do what I play healer to do - I get to HEAL.

You know what else fixes the one button monotony? Healing. We have so many healing buttons that if we had to use them and if our "dps filler" were actually filler that'd be great, gone would be the one button monotony people complain about. Further, while I'm thinking about the subject, there's no point in being creative about healing skills when there's no use for them.

[ApolloGenX]

Fun heals are fun.

You can heal people besides tanks.

[PyurBlue]

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons

One of the most commonly run content. You're right that WAR is only overpowered in a specific situation, yet that hasn't stopped it from becoming a source of annoyance to players. Seeing a Warrior tank when queueing into a dungeon is pure disappointment. Fixing this won't make healers perfect, but it will make them better.

Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.

At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

[Magikazam]

Even if we nerf Warrior and the tanks, that would remain "the dude who heal people who don't get out of puddles".

False, you would also be the dude who has to keep the tank alive unless you want a party wipe.

[Shurrikhan]

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

???

Merely being "reined in to balance", let alone just "not immortal", does not necessitate being "paper".

Not having 7 seconds straight of near-Benediction spam per 25s, and instead again seeing healing reward from your oGCD, AA, and reflective damage, does not make tanking suck.

To your broader point, yes, a tank that seemingly lacks sufficient power to have agency or any control over its survival would be bad, but that is worlds apart from what was requested. Few have even suggested a return to Endwalker levels of healing, which was far from paper anyways, let alone Stormblood or Heavenward. And even those iterations of tanks left them far from paper.

For my part, I felt most engaged when tanking was legitimately difficult, such as when playing Protection Warriors at its squishiest, because there was nonetheless a ton of agency by which to survive and perform our jobs. How? Because passive and/or easy capacity is only a small part of agency.

[Valmaxian]

One of the most commonly run content. You're right that WAR is only overpowered in a specific situation, yet that hasn't stopped it from becoming a source of annoyance to players. Seeing a Warrior tank when queueing into a dungeon is pure disappointment. Fixing this won't make healers perfect, but it will make them better.


At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

Personally, I LOVE getting Warrior tanks when I’m healing. It allows me to DPS more, killing mobs faster. I roll my eyes when I get Gunbreakers, especially when they don’t know how to use Superbolide properly.

And as a LONG time healer main who’s only recently started tanking seriously, I relish playing Warrior - it’s actually become my favorite melee job in the game, and Bloodwhetting is party of that experience.

[Shurrikhan]

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.

The same is at least as true of your approach. Simply put:

Where (even oGCD) healing doesn't much matter, the problem is that...

1. the healing doesn't matter and healers have nothing else to do with even potential engagement, AND
   
2. that healing increases cannot quite be settled upon simultaneously across ST and MT content for tanks like WAR and for tanks like DRK, therefore denying a workable threshold from which to finally --having removed the prior red herrings about theoretical healing increases great enough to allegedly make Malefic spam therebetween appealing-- handle what downtime remains.

Where (oGCD) healing does matter, the problem is that...

1. the relative waste of GCD heals exacerbates how little else there is with even potential engagement, AND
   
2. that further healing increases to dig into that portion cannot quite be settled upon simultaneously across ST and MT content for tanks like WAR and for tanks like DRK, therefore denying a workable threshold from which to finally --having removed the prior red herrings about theoretical healing increases great enough to allegedly make Malefic spam therebetween appealing-- handle what downtime remains.

The problems are the same, just sampled at different levels of decay.

[CKNovel]

False, you would also be the dude who has to keep the tank alive unless you want a party wipe.

That's exactly what I'm criticizing. Healer should be the dude that had to keep the party alive.

At that point you might as well remove TB's and party defense abilities. Mitigation for self and party is what sets the tank role apart. Without that there would be no reason to play it.

That remark makes me believe you completely missed the point.
Tanks fits 2 roles, they are DPS and they are tanks.

In Dungeons, Normal mode and 24 man raid, tank buster deals miserable damages. Yet do we see a tank strike?
No, because tanks still have another role to fill.


Go back to my 24 man raid argument where Warrior isn't broken yet healing is still boring. I haven't seen a counter-argument yet.

[Terhix]

(...) where Warrior isn't broken (...)

Glad to see you acknowledge it's broken in dungeons, even if indirectly.