Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Mercury_Grey]

What is the way, then, and how/why is it immune to any degradation from imbalance among tank jobs (or jobs in general)?

Lets say we amp healing requirements so that, even with a fully-geared Warrior played perfectly, healers have to hit all their oGCDs optimally to keep them up with only pre-shields/HoTs and between-pull heals.

Has that decreased the advantage of Warriors in dungeons, or merely made it all the more significant?

Has it made Bloodwhetting any less a disproportionate portion of Warrior's total mitigation in trash pulls relative to other tanks' short-CD? Has it made Bloodwhetting degrade optimizations elsewhere any less through just how huge merely having auto-crits readied for its window is?

My complaints about Bloodwhetting apply as a Warrior, as well. Its optimizations being solely a matter of auto-crits means that, if I were balanced, I'd no longer be able to hit higher peaks of sustain and/or damage by saving oGCDs for Bloodwhetting or prioritizing just raid buff usage with them, that Damnation has no synergy with my short-CD (via reflected damage) and that it and Equilibrium's synergy with any bonus healing is basically irrelevant compared to just one more auto-crit under Bloodwhetting.

The swap from healing from damage dealt to a flat heal per hit made the skill less interactive and more dull atop making it scale far better than any other AoE in the game (imagine if Orogeny was just Upheaval but per target, with no penalty) and therefore becoming nigh impossible to balance simultaneously for ST and AoE.
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Tl;dr: Yes, of course healers should be revamped; I don't think anyone here is arguing that healers would be fine if only Warrior's healing were reined in to reasonable levels. But gross imbalances in sustain and broken (unable to be balanced across multiple content types) scaling factors --not to mention the gameplay nerfs therefrom-- need to be addressed regardless.

I agree with your statement, I play warrior a lot for groups to balance so we dont have 2 of the same job like GNB and DRK, etc. Most don't realize for warrior to ahve the big Shield from shake it off it has to use bloodwhetting, damnation, and thrill of battle. Hell even great nebula now has that thrill fo battle but only the bonus HP part.

[ApolloGenX]

Not sure why you would nerf one of the few fun classes instead of buff the boring ones.

Healing is just broken. It's because mechanics make individuals responsible for not taking damage instead of healers responsible for healing it.

If people are responsible then ditch healing and give self healing....easier to balance damage in fights.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure why you would nerf one of the few fun classes instead of buff the boring ones.

First, because gameplay is relevant to capacity only insofar as one's optimizations (the elements of difficulty for which you are rewarded) are balanced against each other, such as good use of all your skills being meaningful regardless of content type, instead of one overwhelming all others, and is balanced against content (such that you have decent reason to engage with, again, your whole kit). Generally, being truly overpowered is as at least as damaging to gameplay as being relatively underpowered, even if not nearly as bad for your chances of getting a group.

Second, because there is no such thing as a "buff" to all others that isn't simply a content nerf or, yet again, a relative nerf to the job in question. When asking for the outlier not to be addressed, one is effectively asking for the game as a whole to be made harder (if the outlier was underpowered) or easier (if, as per Warrior in multi target situations, the outlier was overpowered). If one did not wish to adjust content difficulty as a whole, they'd simply deal with the one job at issue, since if you balanced the content after the "buff" to all, etc., you'd end up with the same result, just with far more work and likely errors.

Healing is just broken. It's because mechanics make individuals responsible for not taking damage instead of healers responsible for healing it.

No, that issue you're describing is with the design of certain fights, not healing itself. Were that not the case, it'd be no less broken/redundant on Warriors, Paladins, etc.

If people are responsible then ditch healing and give self healing....easier to balance damage in fights.

It'd be "easier to balance" fights if we were to remove tanks, too, to be fair. As with (removing) healers, though, that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Magikazam]

Not sure why you would nerf one of the few fun classes instead of buff the boring ones.

First off, they tried that with Picto and now we got people complaining about the new savages dps checks being almost inexistants due to everyone increased potency.

Secondly. How would you exactly make dps and healer role on par with the ''op-ness'' of Warrior? You give healer a 15 sec cd mana free insta-cast benediction?

The issues here ain't even that other job aren't fun, the issues here is that Warrior just step on other class gameplay and that make those class less fun. in ARR they nerfed WHM and SMN titan egi cause you could tank some boss with them.

[Mercury_Grey]

Honestly, imma say it some people should of seen the interview with yoshi-p, I believe its from 7.2 and further they are gonna try to make class identities more diverse. For example: PLD be more of the defensive, GNB more dps, DRK more magical defense.

[Reginald_Cain]

First off, they tried that with Picto and now we got people complaining about the new savages dps checks being almost inexistants due to everyone increased potency.

Secondly. How would you exactly make dps and healer role on par with the ''op-ness'' of Warrior? You give healer a 15 sec cd mana free insta-cast benediction?

The issues here ain't even that other job aren't fun, the issues here is that Warrior just step on other class gameplay and that make those class less fun. in ARR they nerfed WHM and SMN titan egi cause you could tank some boss with them.

You healers need to stop gas lighting yourselves that you're mad at warrior healing. you're mad because your role has been made to push the same trash looking boring gcd filler attacks since shadowbringers. dawntrail tried to remedy this but they chickened out and only gave you something interesting to do on a two minute cooldown. then 90% of fights is glare filler. People that objectively want healing to be fOcUsEd On HeAlInG should go back to wow with your archaic mentality that healers should just be drones to fill health bars. Healing has been the least fun role for 3 expansions now and it sucks. the whole role needs to more engagement outside of heal checks and long cooldown nukes.

[Reginald_Cain]

I encourage everybody who sees warrior's healing as a threat to game balance to do a comprehensive examination of the game's history. Stuff like homoginization, gutting of jobs like stormblood scholar and machinist being in design limbo for half a decade. Ranged tax is way to heavy on machinist and its because the devs don't play it (look at the aoe disconnect on machinist vs everyone else and tell me they play it) and they forgot machinist isn't a support like the other two. It's infuriating that this stuff exists and people are like warrior healing in casual content is toxic is peak delusion. The fact that when you aren't healing the game feels bad is the problem. Its how the devs gave us NOTHING to do outside of when we're healing to make healing "easier" IT'S STILL HARD it just feels WORSE now! God the changes to healer are the only thing i HATE and despise about shadowbringers. (5.0 astro couldn't even keep a its own mp topped off!). PS I know summoner and bard are 1 button jobs but gemshine atleast changes visual and effects and heavy/burst shot triggers procs of refulgent!

[Shurrikhan]

I encourage everybody who sees warrior's healing as a threat to game balance to [follow these irrelevant red herrings].

Fixed that for you.

[CKNovel]

They're not wrong though.

Healers waits until there's damage to heal and spam the same button while waiting, that's their gameplay. As long as SQEX gives nothing to do to fill those empty window, you'll see complains.
You can nerf Bloodwhetting, Clemency, Cover and whatever you want, healers will always remain an ungrateful role to play.

We'll just end up with dungeons similar to Heroes Gauntlet to balance the nerf and tools that used to be fun won't be anymore, just to stroke the ego of MSQ healers.

Take the 24 man raid from EW, they're as boring as dungeon to heal. Is there multi target? No. Is Warrior broken in there? No.

[Shurrikhan]

They're not wrong though.

"How dare you ask that problem A be dealt with when other problems exist?!" is a very wrong way to look at almost anything, let alone when those problems are resolvable separately/independently of balancing concerns across tanks or among the relative contributions of Warrior's kit.

We'll just end up with dungeons similar to Heroes Gauntlet to balance the nerf and tools that used to be fun won't be anymore, just to stroke the ego of MSQ healers.

Tuning affects only how redundant you make others' (and other parts of your own) kit.

Which do you actually like then? The gameplay of the tools (unchanged, except in that other Warrior mitigation optimizations might also now be of value), or solely the fact that you uniquely don't need the other roles / render another role redundant in their interactions with you, or a different game approach whereby the "trinity" is softened to a pudding?

If the change would be bad, then surely it has to be one of the things actually affected by the change, no? And I'd understand, even, if it's the last. But if one isn't equally okay with tanks being rendered as useless as healers or with Warrior offering only as much as other tanks... I don't get the feeling the game's broader health is their driving concern.