Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

[Connor]

I care what XIV has done with it so far so that people do enjoy the role (and hated the HW casts with a passion). You're essentially asking to transform it so radically that I do question if you do really enjoy the role for what it is i you truly main it. I know it's been butchered over time and it needs help, but I'm immediately made suspicious of people trying to lump it within other roles. I'm sorry but that's creatively bankrupt.

‘You don’t like the same specific iteration of this job, you’re not a real player of said job!

Again, you’re literally using Sylphie logic. ‘Real healers only heal’ ‘real ranged only like current iterations of jobs’. Who exactly decided what phys ranged ‘can’ and ‘can’t’ be? The ‘silent majority’? If you go by the developer’s definitions as per job guide the only two defining features of physical ranged are ‘sustained damage’ and ‘party support’. A physical ranged that had some cast times or spells wouldn’t have to contradict that definition in any way. I mean, isn’t that why DoTs exist? To inflict sustained damage over time while the user is casting?

We’re literally all referencing pre-existing iterations of Bard. I’m not sure how ‘looking over previous design concepts again’ is somehow ‘transforming all ranged into something they never were before’. Dancer and Machinist haven’t been mentioned once, because they traditionally haven’t had any magical ability or theming like Bard did, so nobody has even mentioned literally turning every ranged into a full caster. I mean, Dancer wouldn’t make any sense with cast times because it already pseudo-casts with Step mechanics

[Valence]

I am actually having a really hard time even understanding where this analogy comes from and what it is supposed to demonstrate?

I can reiterate again, that my point is all about people that want to change a role so radically that it becomes something else entirely. SE has done this too with various jobs and alienated all their enjoyers in the process. Again, if you don't enjoy what the role has always been so far (HW excepted, granted but most players hated it), why are you even playing/maining it? Why do you think a lot of old MCH mains feel really shitty about the rework in SHB? Because that's exactly what you're trying to accomplish here. Just in this thread there is already multiple players that voiced their opposition to it. And suddenly backpedaling and saying "it would only be for bard", then what does it solve? DPS output problems on BRD, but not on the other ones then?

You can go back to what the jobguide website says, it's far from telling the whole story of the role. And again, ARR BRD has never been a caster, it's not because you had one cast here that it made it suddenly a caster DPS, no more than it makes current SMN or SAM a caster DPS.

I do not disagree that a paradigm where there is only a formless role of ranged, which includes jobs with various amounts of cast uptime, some almost none, some chokefull of it, can make sense in a design perspective though. But there remains the fact of the alienation of a part of the playerbase and what for? On top of it, I find it amusing that it's suddenly ok when we're talking about rphys, but as soon as someone mentions that some melee DPS jobs could have no positionals, it's the biggest outrage on earth from every melee main.

[Connor]

I am actually having a really hard time even understanding where this analogy comes from and what it is supposed to demonstrate?

I can reiterate again, that my point is all about people that want to change a role so radically that it becomes something else entirely. SE has done this too with various jobs and alienated all their enjoyers in the process. Again, if you don't enjoy what the role has always been so far (HW excepted, granted but most players hated it), why are you even playing/maining it? Why do you think a lot of old MCH mains feel really shitty about the rework in SHB? Because that's exactly what you're trying to accomplish here.

You can go back and hide behind what the jobguide website says, it's far from telling the whole story of the role. And again, ARR BRD has never been a caster, it's not because you had one cast here that it made it suddenly a caster DPS, no more than it makes current SMN or SAM a caster DPS.

It’s supposed to demonstrate how silly it is to say ‘people who have a differing opinion me aren’t real [job] players’. I mean, can’t we literally apply the same logic in reverse? ‘If you don’t think Bards can use magic or have cast times you’re not a real Bard!’

ARR Bard had 3 casts, actually , not one! And I literally never said once it was an actual caster dps lol. I said it straddled the line between the two. Like how Ninja is a cross-section between a melee and a mage with Ninjutsu magic shenanigans.

I don’t need to ‘hide behind’ the job guide, I’ll hide behind how they designed the job in the past thank you very much.

And I mean, you’re telling someone who left phys ranged specifically after Stormblood, how bad it was after Stormblood. Uh, yeah, I was there lol. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned many times I’m literally not a Bard main anymore because of how they butchered the job. Yet somehow I’m neglecting to think about…myself???

Additionally, you keep mentioning Machinist, but all the previous posts have been about Bard? I don’t think any of what we said applies to Machinists anyway so why would they be relevant to it? Nobody is saying ‘make every ranged a homogenised pseudo-caster’. I wouldn’t mind if Machinist got literally none.

I mean, I rarely play Machinist, so why would I start trying to make up ‘solves’ for them? And I’m pretty sure the only Dancer was mentioned was about how it had melee components to certain attacks. So it’s hardly back-pedalling to say ‘we were only/mostly talking about Bard’

As for the part about melee I’m not sure what difference that makes. Personally I wouldn’t really be bothered if there was a melee without positionals. Would be a hell of a nightmare for balancing, but if they somehow made it work why would that matter? Nobody cares about the caster with practically no cast times after all, if anything people are thankful there’s an ‘easy caster’ option (terrible gameplay aside)

Lastly in regards to alienating players, how is it fair that players who enjoyed previous iterations totally deserve to be completely alienated by current phys ranged, yet it’s absolutely unacceptable that there might be a chance of alienating current players? (Though I don’t particularly see how unless again they literally just copy+pasted cast times onto all weaponskills on all jobs like it’s HW. 2.0)

[Ramiee]

I don't care what other MMOs do. I care what XIV has done with it so far so that people do enjoy the role (and hated the HW casts with a passion). You're essentially asking to transform it so radically that I do question if you do really enjoy the role for what it is i you truly main it. I know it's been butchered over time and it needs help, but I'm immediately made suspicious of people trying to lump it within other roles. I'm sorry but that's creatively bankrupt.

So essentially you only care about your own opinion and no one elses.
I don't care about walking pvp casts being a part of phys range thats it, I don't have a strong enough opinion on them that they should be in the role or not. This is literally it I liked HW bard, I didn't like HW machinst some people have the reverse opinion why should I care if other people hated the HW casts? The main reason I don't play bard anymore is completely different from casts I just hate the song rotation, as for Machinist I enjoy it as it is but wished it did more damage and had better aoe. If bard got a song that gave it cast times I wouldn't hate that but if the songs remained the same system id hate that. We have different priorities I don't view having no cast times as core to phys ranges identity instead I view them as the DPS support role, I think you are working yourself up over a subjective opinion.

[Valence]

It’s supposed to demonstrate how silly it is to say ‘people who have a differing opinion me aren’t real [job] players’. I mean, can’t we literally apply the same logic in reverse? ‘If you don’t think Bards can use magic or have cast times you’re not a real Bard!’

I guess my confusion comes from the question of where I even said something remotely close to this?

I don’t need to ‘hide behind’ the job guide, I’ll hide behind how they designed the job in the past thank you very much.

And I mean, you’re telling someone who left phys ranged specifically after Stormblood, how bad it was after Stormblood. Uh, yeah, I was there lol. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned many times I’m literally not a Bard main anymore because of how they butchered the job. Yet somehow I’m neglecting to think about…myself???

Why would you be neglecting to think about yourself? Where is this coming from now? I feel like we're talking about different things, completely past each other and not reading or comprehending what we are both writing at this point, because I'm actually extremely confused reading every one of your lines by now...

Additionally, you keep mentioning Machinist, but all the previous posts have been about Bard? I don’t think any of what we said applies to Machinists anyway so why would they be relevant to it? Nobody is saying ‘make every ranged a homogenised pseudo-caster’. I wouldn’t mind if Machinist got literally none.

I mean, I rarely play Machinist, so why would I start trying to make up ‘solves’ for them? And I’m pretty sure the only Dancer was mentioned was about how it had melee components to certain attacks. So it’s hardly back-pedalling to say ‘we were only/mostly talking about Bard’

I mentioned MCH as an analogy into a school case scenario of what not to do to alienate the people that enjoyed it before a huge rework changing it into something else entirely. You can effortlessly replace it by SMN, which suffered the exact same fate, or even HW rphys. Bringing back serious cast times on rphys ala HW would be doing exactly that, no matter the rphys job. If your point was trying to claim precedence on BRD having had cast times on cross class crap in ARR, then fair enough I guess? Were they a huge chunk of the job uptime?

As for the part about melee I’m not sure what difference that makes. Personally I wouldn’t really be bothered if there was a melee without positionals. Would be a hell of a nightmare for balancing, but if they somehow made it work why would that matter? Nobody cares about the caster with practically no cast times after all, if anything people are thankful there’s an ‘easy caster’ option (terrible gameplay aside)

People actually tend to care a great deal about the caster that's not a caster anymore actually. Unless we're not reading the same forums.

Lastly in regards to alienating players, how is it fair that players who enjoyed previous iterations totally deserve to be completely alienated by current phys ranged, yet it’s absolutely unacceptable that there might be a chance of alienating current players? (Though I don’t particularly see how unless again they literally just copy+pasted cast times onto all weaponskills on all jobs like it’s HW. 2.0)

Current rphys retains most of the properties it has always had since ARR, even if a lot of things have been watered down or outright lost (in the case of MCH... most of it sadly). HW was an anomaly that most people hated. May I ask what you disliked about BRD after Stormblood that you found alienating enough to feel betrayed, because as far as I remember, ShB BRD is pretty much the same platform beyond the minor expansion changes jobs tend to have.

On copy pasting HW cast times into all weaponskills, it is literally what people have been suggesting with pvp walked 1.5s cast times. And if that's not what you personally have been suggesting, then I feel like all of this has been a storm in a kettle since I've said already that I don't consider SAM/SMN occasional casts to make a role a caster role. Since I feel like people are consciously ignoring what I've been writing after that many pages, I'll reiterate that I'm fine with them, especially if they serve a purpose of making specific big hits feel that they have more weight/omph.

So essentially you only care about your own opinion and no one elses.
I don't care about walking pvp casts being a part of phys range thats it, I don't have a strong enough opinion on them that they should be in the role or not. This is literally it I liked HW bard, I didn't like HW machinst some people have the reverse opinion why should I care if other people hated the HW casts? The main reason I don't play bard anymore is completely different from casts I just hate the song rotation, as for Machinist I enjoy it as it is but wished it did more damage and had better aoe. If bard got a song that gave it cast times I wouldn't hate that but if the songs remained the same system id hate that. We have different priorities I don't view having no cast times as core to phys ranges identity instead I view them as the DPS support role, I think you are working yourself up over a subjective opinion.

The point being made is:
- Other MMOs can be a source of inspiration, but it doesn't automatically implies that a role has to follow the same quirks, especially when it has not in XIV. Caring or not about what other MMOs do doesn't equate to caring about people's opinions, else I wouldn't be taking time to write there and reply to people?
- Trying to assign to the role what defines other roles is creatively bankrupt
- Whether you feel that the absence of cast times are an important part or defining part of the role or not, I'm saying a lot of people do, and therefore asking them to give up on it is not taking their opinion into consideration actually. People trying to assign cast times are the ones trying to change the role in significant ways, significance which I have exposed in the OP, and that you don't see them as significant or not, some other people actually do and care. Don't go about saying we don't care about other people's opinions, because by the looks of it, it looks like the exact opposite to me.

[Ramiee]

The point being made is:
- Other MMOs can be a source of inspiration, but it doesn't automatically implies that a role has to follow the same quirks, especially when it has not in XIV. Caring or not about what other MMOs do doesn't equate to caring about people's opinions, else I wouldn't be taking time to write there and reply to people?
- Trying to assign to the role what defines other roles is creatively bankrupt
- Whether you feel that the absence of cast times are an important part or defining part of the role or not, I'm saying a lot of people do, and therefore asking them to give up on it is not taking their opinion into consideration actually. People trying to assign cast times are the ones trying to change the role in significant ways, significance which I have exposed in the OP, and that you don't see them as significant or not, some other people actually do and care. Don't go about saying we don't care about other people's opinions, because by the looks of it, it looks like the exact opposite to me.

1. Yeah which is why I'm not against them taking inspiration from how other MMOs do archer design. Most of the best MMOs arent original they steal ideas and make them better, self referencing is how we get the 90-100 traits upgrades and not new abilities. It's because you are starting to act dismissive of people for not being true Phys range players or whatever, all opinions matter on job design.

2. Magical ranged isn't defined by casts, SMN has no casts, RDM has short casts followed by instant casts. Casting isn't really an identity of a role in this game, there's jobs where it's an identity like BLM but no role is really caster. Really if you think magical ranged should be casters and Phys ranged shouldn't I'm sorry but the Devs don't agree, they have made it clear.

3. Like I said I don't have a super strong opinion on it and I think Phys range has way more problems in its core. Adding cast times and upping damage won't fix Phys range they are at their core a role that has no identity.
I don't think if cast times were added to a Phys range it would do much but id prefer CBU3 to actually experiment with the role more instead of leaving it in its current state. I don't think increasing damage or buffs will fix the role at all I just think DNC and BRD are badly designed while machinist the best designed but not quite there yet.
You are using dismissive language and techniques in conversations that people often use to dismiss other opinions, you may or may not be doing it intentionally but it seems that way.

[Connor]

Note: didn’t mean to make such a long post but wanted to reply with my opinion to all the points so it got a little out of hand.

I guess my confusion comes from the question of where I even said something remotely close to this?

Out of curiosity, how many of you all are actual rphys mains and how many of you are actually caster mains in a trenchcoat?

You’re essentially asking to transform it so radically that I do question if you do really enjoy the role for what it is i you truly main it. I.

These posts give the impression of ‘no true ranged!’. Personally I think anyone who cares about the phys ranged role is ‘a true phys ranged’, even if they can’t bring themselves to play it very often anymore so they use a different job. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that wanting/not wanting cast times is the determinant of who is/isn’t a phys ranged main (or were and would like to return someday)

Ifyour point was trying to claim precedence on BRD having had cast times on cross class crap in ARR, then fair enough I guess? Were they a huge chunk of the job uptime?

Maybe it’s just an issue with me forgetting not everyone was there since the very start (that isn’t meant as a slight either just an observation). Bard at 2.0 release tragically lost its access to Conjurer subclassing and gained Lancer / Pugilist subclassing instead. It had three spells at the time; Mage’s Ballad, Army’s Paeon and Foe’s Requiem. Songs was pretty much the only thing it had going on at that point besides hitting DoTs as required. They inflicted a 25% damage reduction on the Bard whilst singing which necessitated careful management of uptime to account for bursts etc. The damage reduction was absolutely not appreciated by Bards in general lol, but personally I didn’t really mind since Bard being super low dps was just par-for-the-course lol. The only existing proc at the time was Bloodletter, followed by (I think) Rain of Death sometime shortly after when they had to nerf it for breaking coils, or maybe Titan? lol (damage down gcds go brrr). So yeah, they were a pretty major aspect of the entire job. Same goes for Heavensward though hilariously they added more oGCDs like Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder in addition to the cast times from Minuet. Then come Stormblood we get the passive buff songs, not really my thing but I could take it. Then when even they went once Shadowbringers came out, I knew I could save myself the heartache and just jump ship (onto another sinking ship aka SCH)

People actually tend to care a great deal about the caster that\\'s not a caster anymore actually. Unless we\\'re not reading the same forums.

In terms of the terrible gameplay, absolutely. In terms of the concept? I haven’t seen that much for or against it - just that what we have now is very much not fun to play.

May I ask what you disliked about BRD after Stormblood that you found alienating enough to feel betrayed

To me the problem with Bard going into Shadowbringers is that they had completely deleted everything ‘magical’ and ‘FF Bard-like’ in favour of a bunch of Archery abilities. Songs didn’t even have support effects at the beginning, they were literal pure dps cooldowns. Minne was arguably even worse than now because it was still single target, Paean remained functionally redundant as debuffs were/are either unremovable or not really worth using. They removed role skill support abilities like Palisade, Tactician and Refresh. And most evil of all, they took my Foe Requiem. The last remaining song that existed purely for support and not as a glorified dps cool-down. Or, well, it was, but at least it was wearing a convincing moustache!

On copy pasting HW cast times into all weaponskills, it is literally what people have been suggesting with pvp walked 1.5s cast times. And if that\\'s not what you personally have been suggesting, then I feel like all of this has been a storm in a kettle since I\\'ve said already that I don\\'t consider SAM/SMN occasional casts to make a role a caster role. Since I feel like people are consciously ignoring what I\\'ve been writing after that many pages, I\\'ll reiterate that I\\'m fine with them, especially if they serve a purpose of making specific big hits feel that they have more weight/omph.

I mean, all-in-all I can take or leave walking casts personally. And I’d like to assume anyone referring to ‘adding walking / HW casts’ is naturally saying so with the unspoken caveat of ‘with the many necessary changes that would be required’. But all I’m saying is that personally I think leaning into the ‘magical/traditional Bard’ identity would be the thing that makes me think ‘I actually want to be a Bard again’. Turning songs into spells, maybe either make Minne/Paean gcds or change the effects (or both). Radiant Encore could be available after every song but with a cast time (they could just the ‘conducting’) aspect as part of the cast. Make it scale with coda but not remove them so it’s not too strong. That’s what I think anyway. I mean, I’m not a game developer so idk lol, but they could have at least tried to work with the concept instead of just throwing it in the trash for…whatever is going on with Apex Arrow (shooting…sound? At least it’s kind of magical lol)

[Xieldras]

And most evil of all, they took my Foe Requiem. The last remaining song that existed purely for support and not as a glorified dps cool-down. Or, well, it was, but at least it was wearing a convincing moustache!

Foe's Requiem in the song rotation: How do you do fellow songs?

Stormblood was definitely the peak of the class in my opinion. We had a wider support range than what we currently have (I miss Palissade, even if Tanks don't need it at all right now), a high skill ceiling, and a more solid idea of what our class identity was. The current issue right now really is that the role scales baked in forced the class into a median between power and support, and average without distinction is just bad. They focused too much on the Archer aspect without understanding why Magical Archer worked back in HW and SB, and we got the monstrosity that is Apex/Burst Arrow as a result.

Like I said before, some cast times can work within the role and a mix of casting and instant could be cool, but it seems to me that a lot of people here are more in favor of adding a cast time to all weaponskills instead of keeping them instantaneous.

And I wonder if that's merely because of looking for novelty, because I have a feeling that implementing this will merely drown the role even more and make current mains leave. Not to mention how current fight design is already harsh if you don't know the dance, as boss casts are punishing and quick (and you cannot walk out of those quickly). It could be an opportunity to make Repel Shot more useful, but I doubt 90% of the players have that skill on their hotbar.

My question really is: How will this help rDPS? I've not yet been convinced by the thread since the argument really seems to be "it'll be cooler because PvP is fun, and I want PvE to be fun like that too". Which is a fair sentiment, but doesn't really take into account the role's design within a PvE environment and all the intricacies that can happen. Realistically, such a drastic change would need to be stress tested over months to check exactly that.

And if such changes do go through, well I don't know where I would go then. AST had its RNG removed. Melee doesn't appeal to me. RDM maybe? It would be pushing players out that do not have an alternative in jobs. Then, how many would come into the forums and say they hate the cast times once the novelty wears off?

This whole thing just doesn't seem that well thought-out.

[mallleable]

For BRD, just add a walking cast to Burst Shot, make Hawk's Eye proc guaranteed after 3 casted GCDs, everything else can be instant. For MCH, replace the Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge which is a walking cast, and create a system so that every third GCD grants battery, everything else can be instant. Give BRD, and MCH a weaker instant GCD that they can fall back on in case of emergencies.

[Ramiee]

For BRD, just add a walking cast to Burst Shot, make Hawk's Eye proc guaranteed after 3 casted GCDs, everything else can be instant. For MCH, replace the Clean Shot combo with Blast Charge which is a walking cast, and create a system so that every third GCD grants battery, everything else can be instant. Give BRD, and MCH a weaker instant GCD that they can fall back on in case of emergencies.

Personally I like MCH as is, I don't thing it needs a walking cast. For DNC though I would want it to have that spinning attack it has in PVP in its tool kit, that thing is just fun to use in PVP and it would be fun to use in AOE for dungeons.