Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

[Ramiee]

Mage bard was problematic because it was 90% of what you were doing since it was the highest DPS. I don't think it was a bad idea persay having cast times on bard, but only ever having cast times and especially caster casts where you couldn't move was rough.

[Xieldras]

I'm personally against cast times on Bard's weaponskills. Been there done that in Heavensward, and not having it differentiates the rDPS role from the magic DPS one in gameplay. Plus, if we add cast times, then you'd be pushing out the players that enjoy the ranged gameplay without them (and there's nowhere else to go then).

That said I'm not against all cast times on it. I remember Foe's Requiem when it had a 2 second cast time. You had to pay attention a tad more to avoid pulling the boss/mobs immediately. I think songs are the perfect skills to have a cast time on (and I wouldn't mind if they were linked to MP, but those days are sadly gone).

[Connor]

I'm personally against cast times on Bard's weaponskills. Been there done that in Heavensward, and not having it differentiates the rDPS role from the magic DPS one in gameplay. Plus, if we add cast times, then you'd be pushing out the players that enjoy the ranged gameplay without them (and there's nowhere else to go then.)

I’d imagine theoretically if they did do ‘ranged casts’ they’d apply a similar ‘sliding scale’ casters have. As in, there’d be one with essentially no cast times (Summoner), one with some but more flexibility (Red Mage, Pictomancer(?)), and one that’s mostly all casts (Black Mage).

Obviously, the main issue with that is that people would just complain no matter which ‘section’ they fell into. Either they’d fall onto the ‘no cast’ extreme and up with the worst dps, or they’d end up on the heavy cast time extreme and people would just fight over who has to be the casting one, or complain ‘Why does [my job] have to be the casting one?! Jail Yoshi-P!’

[Xieldras]

I’d imagine theoretically if they did do ‘ranged casts’ they’d apply a similar ‘sliding scale’ casters have. As in, there’d be one with essentially no cast times (Summoner), one with some but more flexibility (Red Mage, Pictomancer(?)), and one that’s mostly all casts (Black Mage).

Obviously, the main issue with that is that people would just complain no matter which ‘section’ they fell into. Either they’d fall onto the ‘no cast’ extreme and up with the worst dps, or they’d end up on the heavy cast time extreme and people would just fight over who has to be the casting one, or complain ‘Why does [my job] have to be the casting one?! Jail Yoshi-P!’

In theory it would probably be what happens, since Square seems to enjoy having those scales baked into the gameplay (Selfish, Med and "Support" DPS - one extreme to the other). My main issue with this suggestion really boils down to identity as well. What would differentiate the rDPS role from the Casting one if we do integrate PvP cast times? Ours is already hanging by a thin thread, which is that we don't have cast time on our ranged weaponskills (as our support is outshined by the other roles' support in my opinion).

For all the talk about people being against homogenisation, adding cast times would cut the final thread separating the 2 roles and make just one mishmash of classes that look too similar without having any valuable differences in identity.

[Connor]

In theory it would probably be what happens, since Square seems to enjoy having those scales baked into the gameplay (Selfish, Med and "Support" DPS - one extreme to the other). My main issue with this suggestion really boils down to identity as well. What would differentiate the rDPS role from the Casting one if we do integrate PvP cast times? Ours is already hanging by a thin thread, which is that we don't have cast time on our ranged weaponskills (as our support is outshined by the other roles' support in my opinion).

For all the talk about people being against homogenisation, adding cast times would cut the final thread separating the 2 roles and make just one mishmash of classes that look too similar without having any valuable differences in identity.

I guess it could be the prevalence of oGCD proc style gameplay, support/buffs, high APM, and still generally much higher mobility than what casters (not you SMN lol) have. Which isn’t a massive difference from what we have now really.

Plus doesn’t that apply to melee too? We have more melee than any other job, yet the breadth of the role hasn’t seen the jobs within completely lose their identity. So theoretically I don’t think it would have to have a massive impact on the overall identity of ranged if they did have cast times. Plus if they did their ‘scaling’ thing as mentioned there could always be one ranged that’s like Summoner with essentially no casting whatsoever (Dancer maybe?).

Though again as mentioned, no matter which end of the ‘spectrum’ they set the jobs people will either complain ‘MCH should be the top one with hard casts not BRD/DNC!’ Or ‘why does Bard get to be in the middle and not Dancer! Literally unplayable!’. Honestly I still think the biggest barrier against ‘ranged casts’ is and likely always will be the player backlash. It could work (with various adjustments), but even if it did, they’d just have to revert it back to how it was anyway because the forums would be flooded with ‘RANGED DEAD FOREVER’ threads

[Valence]

Or we can also settle into not turning this role into casters 2.0. If you're all so insistent into playing one, there is 7 of them right now in the game... Out of curiosity, how many of you all are actual rphys mains and how many of you are actually caster mains in a trenchcoat?

Another issue I see with this idea, even if they made it work in pve with whatever solution you go with, like pressed and tap systems and whatnot, is that you're essentially completely changing one of the few remaining bits of rphys, which is something that the PHYSICAL roles all share: busyness and weaving. Casters don't because they have cast times. You'd be essentially trying to turn the role into something totally different and I'm not sure to like it for that specific reason alone.

In theory it would probably be what happens, since Square seems to enjoy having those scales baked into the gameplay (Selfish, Med and "Support" DPS - one extreme to the other). My main issue with this suggestion really boils down to identity as well. What would differentiate the rDPS role from the Casting one if we do integrate PvP cast times? Ours is already hanging by a thin thread, which is that we don't have cast time on our ranged weaponskills (as our support is outshined by the other roles' support in my opinion).

For all the talk about people being against homogenisation, adding cast times would cut the final thread separating the 2 roles and make just one mishmash of classes that look too similar without having any valuable differences in identity.

Yeah I really don't get this either. People are all up in pitchforks and torches when it comes to homogenization, but a second later when they see an opportunity to make a job into something they like elsewhere, or that they see that another job/role has something theirs doesn't, they ask to get the exact same treatment. Honestly when I read this, this community gets from the devs what it deserves at times.

I'm personally against cast times on Bard's weaponskills. Been there done that in Heavensward, and not having it differentiates the rDPS role from the magic DPS one in gameplay. Plus, if we add cast times, then you'd be pushing out the players that enjoy the ranged gameplay without them (and there's nowhere else to go then).

That said I'm not against all cast times on it. I remember Foe's Requiem when it had a 2 second cast time. You had to pay attention a tad more to avoid pulling the boss/mobs immediately. I think songs are the perfect skills to have a cast time on (and I wouldn't mind if they were linked to MP, but those days are sadly gone).

That's my view as well.

And it scares me actually, for the simple reason that I feel what people are telling me in this thread is essentially that my favorite playstyle and role isn't welcome anymore and that I don't belong into the game for sharing it. It's exactly what SE has done with MCH reworks in ShB and surprise, it feels like a nightmare.

[Supersnow845]

I’m not sure how you can say that a system that the PVP phys ranged jobs are built around is not part of the phys ranged identity. Walking casts aren’t casts, they are different things and the system of PVP walking casts doesn’t evoke the same design space as the true casters

Regardless even if we leave the walking casts behind for the moment phys ranged need something. “Lack of role specific mechanic” isn’t a design space and just buffing their potencies to be somewhat competitive to the point that you aren’t almost incentivised to swap them out won’t actually fix the design void that physical ranged find themselves in in PVE

[Valence]

As I explained already, I see them as the almost worst casts of both systems and in effect they bring the exact same mechanics that define casters primarily: planning for casting uptime and mobility, and a decreased APM/busyness (which I don't feel either for or against here though). They're breaking the flow of the rotation, which is similar to melees right now (which are PHYSICAL jobs) in order to turn it into casters. HW BRD and MCH felt like casters, period, even MCH.

In fine this is a matter of preferences, and I do believe that we who do not want cast times on the role should have precedence for the simple reason that alienating the main players that have enjoyed that specific playstyle in order to make it something else entirely is akin to removing rng on AST, removing procs on MCH, and all those things that the devs have already done here and there by giving the middle finger to people that never asked anything and enjoyed the role they loved.

We all do agree with the diagnostic and that rphys needs something, we just disagree on what. I already exposed what I do believe could be solutions and pathways for the role, other people have explained that they'd rather see the removal of the role, it's definitely a difference in preferences all with their own arguments behind.

[Xieldras]

They definitely need to revisit the role itself and build back up from there.

What is the Ranged Role? To me it would be the mobility, the instant weaponskills, the support offered and the proc-based gameplay.

That would be, I would argue, the core elements of the rDPS classes.

By adding the PvP cast times, you would remove one of those elements and put the role too close to another's core gameplay. It would be the most obvious one too since the other 2 aren't necessarily the staples they used to be (Procs are still mostly found in this role).

At the end of the day, I don't believe that moving PvP elements to PvE is the best idea. Some gameplay pieces simply work better in a different environment. Cast times can work, but it has to be very limited so we don't bleed into another Role.

[Connor]

Out of curiosity, how many of you all are actual rphys mains and how many of you are actually caster mains in a trenchcoat?

Sorry but Bard has literally been a caster in a trench coat since its inception lol. I mean even back in 1.0 it could literally cast Cure and Thunder because the subclass requirements were CNJ/THM. Songs had cast times all the way until Heavensward (again not counting Stormblood Foe Requiem because that was probably a complete accident by devs lol), hell it even went through phases of getting literal caster skills in old PvP modes like when it had Mana Draw.

We don’t even bother keeping up the ‘archery’ pretence anymore lol, we’re shooting arrows made of wind, light and darkness at the enemy, or manifesting a pillar of light with our mind and conducting it into a devastating blast. It barely counts as ‘physical’ by this point anyway. And yes, every job uses ‘Aether’ thereby making them all ‘casters’, but that’s not true to the same extent as it is with Bards. No melee can literally poison an enemy by pointing at them, or cause an explosion with a click of their fingers, except maybe Ninja who literally have magic written into their lore (Mudra is casting but from the East lol). Again, outside of Ninja (where it’s literally their whole thing lol), we don’t see most other physical kobs waving their hands and around causing explosions or whatever the hell is going on with Apex (shooting music? lol).

That’s not to mention 50% of Bard’s identity is based on a literal caster. Bards in Final Fantasy tradition have always been mages, FFXIV is the singular exception. 50% of it is the Archer which is usually associated with multi-hit attacks (Barrage), but the other 50% of Bard is associated with casting songs to support the party and debuff enemies.

I mean, Bard losing all traces of its ‘caster in trench coat’ was the exact reason I stopped playing it come Shadowbringers. I never started playing the job to be a super powered billion actions per second dps with a little bit of support, no cast times and a proc-based high damage rotation. If I did why wouldn’t I just play Machinist or Dancer who have never had that as an aspect of their identity? (I think everyone can agree on pretending Gauss Barrel never happened, though it was still pure physical anyway lol)

Obviously I’m not saying those aspects of Bard should be applied wholesale to Machinist/Dancer, but at the same time Bard has very much straddled the line between physical and caster for a decent amount of its lifespan, only moving away from such around Shadowbringers (where they also removed a ton of its support abilities). But I really don’t accept that liking those about Bard somehow means I’m ’not/never was’ one. I mean, isn’t that essentially just the ‘Sylvie Healer Logic’ by a different name? ‘If you want to dps as healer just go play a DPS! You’re not a true healer if you want to dps!’ Etc. ‘you’re not a real Bard if you like magic!’