The Current state of DRK

[Zimmerson]

The current savage tier has physical tankbusters in 3 out of the 4 floors, but does this make DRK unviable? Not even close. Rampart + Shadowed Vigil + TBN is more than enough for all of them.

If you decided to spot-check other players with TBN/Oblation, you're shit out of luck. In an ideal world, you should never have to spot-check the other players and this would at least leave you with a 25% max HP shield and 2x 10% mits to be splashed about, but it's not exactly ideal (yes you'll be given mit from the healer so I suppose the lack of mit can be covered via shielding etc.

TBN on the caster + both Oblations on the healers means the party can afford to save a mit cooldown for somewhere else. No other tank can do this.

Okay - I'll challenge this:

WAR:
Nascent Glint can be given to a party member
GNB:
Heart of Corundum can be given to a party member
Two Charges of Aurora can be given - Sure, they aren't mitigation but the regen still amounts to something.
PLD:
Passage of Arms
2x casts of Intervention (As long as you have 100 Oath Gauge)

I'm fairly confident you can use your mitigations on other people in an Ultimate, and especially Savage. I do understand that you're saying that DRK is the only class to throw out several mits compared to the other tanks, but with coordination, you can cover 3 people with PLD + WAR/GNB, it's just not the best choice.

I respect your opinion either way, I'm glad we can agree on the DPS side of things feeling woefully bad, but I still feel DRKs mitigation needs touching upon to feel stronger. For me, I just hate the idea of not getting my usage out of TBN because usually when I end up using it, I take the autos but it generally does not break (unless planned into the tankbusters etc.). You can state "skill issue", sure. But im more focused on remembering mechanics/doing callouts than focusing on how many hits the boss does between X mechanic and Y mechanic etc. I just hate using TBN unless I know it can break. And with the post - the only thing I stated to be "Brought in line" with the other tanks was TBN because it does need to be reworked/tweaked to be a better mit.

Bottom line is - if they fixed the self-sustain and fixed the DPS problem, I could turn the other way and be OK with the mitigation. (minus Dark Missionary not being level 70...)

The class NEEDS self-sustain. I even showed the numbers - the differences in tanks.
If you add up all the healing / self sustain (I encourage you to try this yourself with your tanks):

If you press all the buttons that give self sustain:
WAR gets 186,000 total HP healed (give or take a few 1000s)
GNB gets 124,000 total HP healed (give or take a few 1000s)
PLD gets 104,000 total HP healed (give or take a few 1000s)
DRK gets 60,000 total HP healed (give or take a few 1000s) - We are not counting Living Dead as a part of this.

Please look to the Self-Sustain section of my posts to see how I got to the above numbers

[Bibine_Bine]

For Living Dead, I don't think changing it is really necessary at all. Unless you're just not hitting your buttons, there is no way that you can run that entire 10 seconds without healing yourself enough. It's like Bloodwhetting on crack.
For Dark Mind, I think they should just bring Dark Dance back in some form. It was an ability that increased Evasion and Parry Rate, but was removed in Stormblood because Evasion as a stat was axed, and we haven't seen it since. It was the physical counterpart to Dark Mind's magical mitigation.

I think the change to plunge was a good one, but DRK probably needs potency increases to compensate for the lost damage. I disagree in general with giving tanks extra unnecessary oGCD weaves because it makes it harder to use mitigation (it's also why I think Salt and Darkness is stupid). GNB is a fucking nightmare in that regard and I don't want a gnashing fang combo or hypervelocity on DRK.

I've seen various takes on how to change TBN but I honestly think they might be able to just remove the MP tax and do nothing else and it might be fine. The frequency with which you could use it potentially makes up for its lack of mitigation otherwise, and it no longer costing MP just means you get an edge/flood of shadow for free as a reward rather than being punished for the shield not breaking.

I think giving Bloodspiller/Quietus a healing effect would be a good idea. I also had another idea to increase sustain on DRK: Give us back a facsimile of what Abyssal Drain used to be. Its current design makes absolutely no sense sharing a CD with Carve and Spit, and I think if you just made it a no-CD spell with an MP cost it'd fill the role of an added MP sink to fill the hole left by removing TBN's MP cost.

Other than that, I think this was a decently well thought-out take.

[Bibine_Bine]

It can be as good as Warrior with survival if used right (regular TBN+cooldowns) and using Abyssal Drain as a heal on trash when you're low.

Absolutely not. WAR can literally solo max level dungeon bosses. Can DRK do that?

[Bibine_Bine]

I am begging everyone to stop asking for DRK's mitigation to be "brought in line" with other tanks.

DRK's offensive kit is in a boring state, and that does need to be addressed (which, quite frankly, restoring our MP per min to it's former amount would solve like 90% of the issues). But seriously, why are we asking for more homogenization within the tank role? DRK is currently the only tank whose defensive and offensive kits have any interaction, with TBN. Is it frustrating that this offensive connection can limit TBN's power? Sure. But needing to be deliberate about when and where you use TBN is engaging and fun.

The MP tax is not engaging or fun. It's a risk-punishment mechanic that frustrates the player whenever the shield doesn't break, and because you need the shield to always break to not lose damage, you rarely even see its upside of having a shorter CD utilized against bosses.

[Oizen]

I am begging everyone to stop asking for DRK's mitigation to be "brought in line" with other tanks.

DRK's offensive kit is in a boring state, and that does need to be addressed (which, quite frankly, restoring our MP per min to it's former amount would solve like 90% of the issues). But seriously, why are we asking for more homogenization within the tank role? DRK is currently the only tank whose defensive and offensive kits have any interaction, with TBN. Is it frustrating that this offensive connection can limit TBN's power? Sure. But needing to be deliberate about when and where you use TBN is engaging and fun.

Furthermore, the common complaints about Dark Mind and Oblation are just misinformed. The current savage tier has physical tankbusters in 3 out of the 4 floors, but does this make DRK unviable? Not even close. Rampart + Shadowed Vigil + TBN is more than enough for all of them. Meanwhile, when you do have magical busters, DRK becomes practically immortal. Remember when we were soloing the shared buster in P7S and taking no damage? Then with Oblation, people complain about it being "weak" or "half a cooldown", ignoring the fact that its power is in its ability to target party members paired with its multiple charges and low cooldown. If you're dealing with an extremely heavy raidwide in a savage or ultimate, TBN on the caster + both Oblations on the healers means the party can afford to save a mit cooldown for somewhere else. No other tank can do this.

The common meme about DRK right now is that it's just a scuffed WAR. Currently, the only thing keeping that from being literally correct is the fact that TBN isn't a generic, 25-second 0-cost cooldown. So please stop asking for it to be one.

I guess the issue isn't so much DRK can't get through them, and more of DRK is currently hanging on by a incredibly flimsy thread that is "currently highest adps tank". Which will change next balance patch because of course it will.

To me the issue is what does DRK bring?
TBN? is in a rough spot due to the steep MP nerfs
Magic Mitigation? Underutilized this tier with two dead buttons
That leaves Oblation. I like Oblation, but Oblation isn't good enough to be the sole reason to bring a DRK.

DRK surviving isn't the problem. Tank mits are fairly overtuned even for savage, the issue comes from the fact your party will sooner die around faster than if you were on WAR/PLD/GNB.

[noumen0nn]

You all bring up some good points, and I do agree that DRK needs some stronger tools in its kit. I just take issue with the idea that it needs the same tools as every other tank (which I know not all of you are specifically calling for, but I've seen the idea being spread elsewhere.) That said I'm gonna let myself be pedantic about one thing.

In an ideal world, you should never have to spot-check the other players

Oblation isn't just a spot check for when mitigation is short, it can be factored into the mitigation plan itself. Take P1 or P4 in TOP for example. Throwing oblation on casters/healers before they eat a tower or a line stack isn't just for when they're short of full HP, rather it's an expected part of the healing/mitigation map in a party that includes a DRK. One of the reasons DRK was popular in parse/speedkill groups in Endwalker was because, by making the squishiest jobs less squishy through proactive use of its cooldowns, you could cut out entire mits from deadly mechanics like Natural Alignment and Dominion in P8S, which otherwise necessitated things like SCHs losing an energy drain to put up soil or pure healers needing a safety GCD heal. Now, does all of this potentially leave you without mitigation for personal use? Yeah, but it does so to a much lesser degree than with other tanks, not only because DRK has an extra targetable mit compared to them, and TBN comes back faster than the others (though as you pointed out, thats kind of a moot point with the nerf to our mana gain)

Outside of the specifics, my larger point is that job homogenization has been a net negative for FFXIV's gameplay, and I think the tanks should have different strengths and weaknesses in their defensive kits, provided it never reaches the point where content is just disproportionately harder to clear with certain comps (I'm talking like, Heavensward-era). I'll admit I didn't realize the passive sustain difference was THAT bad, and that definitely needs touching up. If 8.0 rolls around and DRK gets an actual interesting DPS rotation, I could part with TBN proc holding and be fine. What I worry about is a world where we both keep the same mind-numbing offensive kit and lose the aspect of the job that is currently the only thing that requires any thought or decision making at all. Maybe that's me worrying too much, but we did just see Viper go through sizeable changes as a kneejerk reaction to feedback.

[Amenara]

I've seen various takes on how to change TBN but I honestly think they might be able to just remove the MP tax and do nothing else and it might be fine. The frequency with which you could use it potentially makes up for its lack of mitigation otherwise, and it no longer costing MP just means you get an edge/flood of shadow for free as a reward rather than being punished for the shield not breaking.

That is kind of where my mind is on TBN. Let DRK use it as needed like every other tank's short mit without being punished but reward us for using it properly. I think if SE is going to have group wide mitigations that are magic only then every AoE needs to be magic damage else you have an even bigger disparity between tank strengths.

[RinaB]

Oblation is the worst mitigator in the game. They basically added heart of conundrum to shadow wall instead of oblation because tbn is so good even though it shatters in 1 second in 97 dungeons?

[Zimmerson]

For Living Dead, I don't think changing it is really necessary at all. Unless you're just not hitting your buttons, there is no way that you can run that entire 10 seconds without healing yourself enough. It's like Bloodwhetting on crack.

You need to think of those edge-cases. As stated as to why Living Dead should just remove the dying part - Yes. 9/10 times you'll live in solo content, but I'm on about those cases where you kill something before healing up and then die because you just can't heal the last bit of your HP. Other tanks will always live, DRK still has a chance of dying.

Thank you for the kind words, these things about DRK have been on my chest for a while and I just needed to get it out there and get people talkin' about the class.

As for in general, I know some of my suggestions will be disliked. I understand that DRK is quite different to the other tanks, but the self-sustain and DPS rotation just needs more work/rework.

End of the day, if they made the DPS rotation better, fixed the self-sustain and those changes affected the whole Class Identity in a good way and ofc got rid of Enhanced Unmend, I'd be mostly OK with leaving DRKs mitigation alone. Although it'd still be nice if they changed some things, but who knows if they'll ever give us that. My heart wants to say that they will, but my gut says otherwise as I found myself agreeing with an earlier comment stating how long it took Living Dead to be reworked...

[Jeeqbit]

Absolutely not. WAR can literally solo max level dungeon bosses. Can DRK do that?

Sometimes. For example, I solo'd the last boss of Amaurot as a DRK a few times in Shadowbringers, which wasn't actually easy. I saw a DRK doing this in some EW dungeons. But anyway, I was referring more to trash because the majority of bosses don't hit hard enough so are often soloable by any tank if they are soloable at all. The main exceptions are leveling dungeons depending on the mechanics because they hit harder.

This is perhaps even easier to acheive due to the addition of Orthos' potions, the heal effect added to Living Dead and the upgrade for Shadow Wall.