We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Tunda]

snip

Queue time issue isn't because we have 3 roles..
Absolutely not

the design of tanks and healers are boring and braindead that's why.. Healers and Tanks are pushed from this and I am one of them.

We have 4 healers have the same kit
We have tanks are braindead, person with 3 braincells can play any tank (Dark knight is exception because it has a bad design and less mitigation)

Queue problem isn't related to how many roles but with how much they are unique.. if you play PLD you play 70% of gunbreaker already, DRK and WAR too

Balancing is the issue now I don't mind all DPS do same damage as BLM but with no utilities, you can't admit the fact of DPS having utility is better than DPS with no utility but do 2% more dmg

Assuming you are taking data from this savage race, still my assumption is correct

5/16 jobs are selfish
6/20 jobs are selfish

But why? why not at least 50% of DPS jobs taken are selfish DPS? even with your data that you provided still my point is correct
8 of the jobs has been taken as selfish job is SAM and the other 3 are VPR and BLM, it is very clear that Selfish DPS jobs are the minority in this game and that is the problem.

Utility breaks the game even more and steal the identity of jobs being selfish and greedy to DPS and sub healer or sub buffer jobs

In this way BLM and Viper will still minority as we see them now..

I will take PCT/MNK/RPR over BLM and VPR all day to savage with 2% less DPS and 5% party damage increase
I will take BRD/DNC over MCH all day


You are filtering fights based on specific fight that's why you got the wrong data.. try to filter all fights job performance you will get a better picture of what is the current state of job rDPS

[Shurrikhan]

Queue time issue isn't because we have 3 roles..
Absolutely not

the design of tanks and healers are boring and braindead that's why.. Healers and Tanks are pushed from this and I am one of them.

???
I never said it was because we had three roles, only that splitting DPS further would, yes, increase queue times, especially for more rarely run matchmade instances.

But more importantly, if you agree that healing and tanking are duller than they should be (and/or than they have been) why are you suggesting the creation of a fourth role that would further reduce the originally unique responsibilities of tanks and healers (and split and constrain DPS job identity besides)?

Assuming you are taking data from this savage race, still my assumption is correct

5/16 jobs are selfish
6/20 jobs are selfish

???

There are 21 jobs capable of current content, not 16 or 20. There are 13 DPS jobs capable of current content, not 16 or 20.

And if we follow your earlier implied setup, there are only 3 selfish jobs because all others have at least some sort of group mitigation, group healing, group damage buff, or a raise. At most, 4, when ignoring MCH's Tactician. Where the heck is 5 or 6 coming from, let alone out of varying totals?

But why? why not at least 50% of DPS jobs taken are selfish DPS? even with your data that you provided still my point is correct

You claimed that Vipers were "few" in Savage. They're overrepresented in Savage, whether it be in initial early clears or top-speed runs. Hell, this is easily visible just from the fact that VPR accounts for 16% of parses despite being only 7.7% of all DPS jobs (207% general relative representation).

You claimed there are few SAMs in Savage. They are instead the fourth most popular job in Savage, probably because it outperforms all other Melee except for but VPR, providing typically 3% more combined aDPS+rDPS than its nearest lower option, Monk, at the 95th percentile. (VPR has double SAM's number of parses with only a 1.5% lead in average total DPS contribution, but is also a flashy new job.)

You claimed that there were no BLMs in (early) Savage. While fewer (2.86% of parses, or 37% general relative representation), as they have always been, they were nonetheless between the first to fourth clears logged worldwide for all but one fight this tier (M3S).

Your every claim on the subject has been objectively false or unintelligible.

You are filtering fights based on specific fight that's why you got the wrong data..

One is only a "top party" in terms of clear speed. Clear speed is always sorted by the specific fight.

And even when looking at all data at once, the same findings appear: the representation of a DPS job scales pretty darn closely relative to their nearest competing alternatives, "selfish" (VPR, SAM, BLM, and maybe MCH) or otherwise (NIN, MNK, DRG, RPR, BRD, DNC, RDM, SMN, PIC), with some exceptions where the higher-performing jobs are also far more finnicky (see BRD vs. MCH).

But, let's get back to the core matter:

But why? why not at least 50% of DPS jobs taken are selfish DPS?

Because forcing a spectrum to instead be a bimodal hurts the available implementations of job identity.

And moreover, we could as easily claim they already nearly are, if we just use a more sensible definition instead of "any tool = support". Call "supportive" the half of DPS whose rDPS are highest relative to their aDPS. Call "selfish" those whose aDPS is higher than their rDPS. Call "supportive" whoever's rDPS is higher than their aDPS. By that classification...

"Selfish" = VPR, SAM, BLM, MCH, RPR, PIC

"Supportive" = DRG, NIN, MNK, RDM, SMN, BRD, DNC

None of which, again, matters beyond bringing a SAM, BLM, or ideally a VPR for your DNC.

I agree, not only black mage who is suffering, VPR and SAM too

What are SAM and VPR suffering from? Success? VPR is the most popular job in Savage, by far. SAM is the most popular melee after VPR, again, by far.

[Connor]

What are SAM and VPR suffering from? Success? VPR is the most popular job in Savage, by far. SAM is the most popular melee after VPR, again, by far.

It’s less important, but it’s worth mentioning that based on various statistics and my own personal possibly biased experience, Viper is both the most popular in Savage and normal content. Being so popular in high end content is one thing, but the fact that remains consistent across both difficulties surely means something.

In a ‘perfect world’ though (I think) we’d expect to see normal difficulty having a fairly even distribution of jobs because it doesn’t really matter what the comp is outside of role requirements for DF. But the fact that even there Viper is the most popular by a noticeable amount, is surely something worth noting.

Viper clearly has a huge ‘fan base’ as it were, and I imagine that’s likely a combination of both the aesthetics, the design itself, and the general perception that the game is skewed towards favouring melee. I’d even say it’s likely more popular than Pictomancer, even in the complete absence of any utility/raid buffs. Viper is less impactful on balance overall (I think) than Pictomancer too, but that hasn't stopped how popular it’s become in any way.

If anything Viper has only gone to show how quickly players take to jobs without support/utility, whether that’s because of playstyle itself or the ‘high damage’ that comes with ‘selfish style dps’.

[Tunda]

It’s less important, but it’s worth mentioning that based on various statistics and my own personal possibly biased experience, Viper is both the most popular in Savage and normal content. Being so popular in high end content is one thing, but the fact that remains consistent across both difficulties surely means something.

In a ‘perfect world’ though (I think) we’d expect to see normal difficulty having a fairly even distribution of jobs because it doesn’t really matter what the comp is outside of role requirements for DF. But the fact that even there Viper is the most popular by a noticeable amount, is surely something worth noting.

Viper clearly has a huge ‘fan base’ as it were, and I imagine that’s likely a combination of both the aesthetics, the design itself, and the general perception that the game is skewed towards favouring melee. I’d even say it’s likely more popular than Pictomancer, even in the complete absence of any utility/raid buffs. Viper is less impactful on balance overall (I think) than Pictomancer too, but that hasn't stopped how popular it’s become in any way.

If anything Viper has only gone to show how quickly players take to jobs without support/utility, whether that’s because of playstyle itself or the ‘high damage’ that comes with ‘selfish style dps’.

VPR is great and balance as Selfish DPS,
and I think all Selfish DPS should be in the same as VPR.

SAM is also balance as selfish DPS, and from my analysis I think some players who enjoys samurai switch to VPR after its release because how fast and fluent the job is

sadly PCT/MNK/RPR cannot be balance in this game with their utility,

we can have them as support but I don't think that it needs really, They need to adjust their raid buffs to self buffs as a quick fix.
but healing skills for DPS is a problem really but not too much.

[Shurrikhan]

Missed this post before, somehow, but...

Support shouldn't be in 1 sub role

There should be melee support range support magical support

Then, done. We're there. Mission accomplished.

You can increase the extent to which the jobs depend on others to get direct (easily attributed on logs) or situational (not attributed on logs) rDPS value, but you'd merely be expanding what's already there. And that much I'd be fine with, so long as it comes at cost as to keep largely situational tools largely just situational whatever cost to core or DPS buttons to suit that purpose is made up for via increased button-efficiency across the prior kit.

However, there is zero need to create a new role for that express purpose. Doing so would just further homogenize any and every DPS you don't move into this new category by pruning their unique utilities and make jobs previously mostly independent necessarily be relegated to far greater dependence on others and on contexts through that flex-role.

It also hinges on there being more damage than tanks and healers can handle. That is not the case now and, more importantly, is not likely ever to be the case. While an emergency rez has made some sense to spread elsewhere, adding enough damage for a flex role not to be avoided (or taken only for the stat bonus) would only increase the failure points that the devs have made constant, steady changes to flatten out those potential points of failures and/or would worsen the redundancy already painful among tanks' and healers' kits.

But 2bh, I always though that the core of the problem is to have 3 main roles (tank, healer, dps). If we had Tank, Healer, Buff/Debuffer, DPS it would be solved.

How?

So long as the fight ends from reducing the enemy's HP to 0, a buffer/debuffer still ultimately just produces additional dps, and typically in a more direct / less involved form than tanks or healers do (by keeping alive those who can deal the most damage over time).

That's true even if they provide a novel buff that is related neither to healing nor tanking: Grant a player Sprint? That does nothing unless it saves them uptime, and if it that uptime doesn't make the difference between life or death, then it simply grants an extra GCD's difference between average potency per GCD and that of their filler mobile/ranged option.

All adding a fourth role would do is to say "Tanks, Healers, DPS... no more (de)buffs for you." Imagine what you will for cool (de)buffer jobs, but... they're still ultimately going to just be...

• DPS,
• those with kit to manipulate mob positioning, targeting, and effectiveness to increase the raid's overall DPS efficiency including through damage avoided and at-cost heals thereby spared ("Tanks"), or
• with kit centered around keeping the raid alive to keep dealing damage where the amount of extra uptime or reduced risk for such increases the average clear speed beyond what would be possible without them ("Healers").

Any of the cool shit you can imagine from having a very Support-esque job... you can have regardless of whether you quarantine that to a new, separate role.

You just can't make too much of its contribution come from unscaled target counts (all single-target, favoring Light Party play and greatly limiting what comps you can max out your value in... or all AoE, thereby requiring an 8-man party to see full value and leaving you comparatively neutered in 4-man content).

VPR is great and balance as Selfish DPS,
and I think all Selfish DPS should be in the same as VPR.

Then why did you repeatedly claim it needed help?

SAM is also balance as selfish DPS, and from my analysis I think some players who enjoys samurai switch to VPR after its release because how fast and fluent the job is

What evidence would tell you the exact gameplay reasons for someone swapping... to a higher-performing job?

sadly PCT/MNK/RPR cannot be balance in this game with their utility

Yes, they can be. MNK and RPR very frequently have been balanced just fine around the other melee.

VPR and PIC are overpowered outliers simply because the devs overly hesitate to rein back what's OP and will typically misjudge the in-practice output changes caused by their reworks.

[Tunda]

snip.

How do you know RPR/MNK are balance?

Do you really think rDPS is enough to judge?

these 2 jobs provide more than DPS
they provide Raid Wide Healing and Regen and this isn't calculated in rDPS,

also RPR party regen is almost as strong as shake it off from warrior

you cannot judge these jobs are balance when you only value rDPS for jobs that do more than just DPS.

VPR isn't overtuned it is perfect maybe nerf 1% to 2% maximum but still balance..
BLM isn't, PCT isn't in reversive way.

PCT have 400 potency party wide healing and this isn't calculated in rDPS because it is utility skill.. how do you calculate this? rDPS isn't a judge nor aDPS

Adding support role will not make balance but will jobs makes sense..
Summoner having 5 healing and shielding skills isn't realistic for DPS job
RDM have literally Healing GCD in their kit says something no?
BRD, DNC having 30% to 50% of their kit as utility isn't really a support jobs?
MNK/RPR have fewer utility skills but it is very impactful in in fights

BLM/VPR/SAM is the only true DPS jobs in this game

we are not asking for something isn't logical here weather you remove utility or make it some person job to do it.

[Lyth]

The long term solution will be to treat Ranged as a single category for the purposes of LB generation and 1% damage buffs (i.e. combinations that break from the 2/2/2/2 format are considered non-standard, similar to how it currently works for solo tank and solo healer violations). Then DPS and utility balance really only matters within a given role category (tank/healer/melee/ranged). At that point you could probably turn Phoenix Down into a role action for Ranged jobs, such that you can bring any combination of two Ranged that you like.

[Shurrikhan]

How do you know RPR/MNK are balance?

I didn't say they are. I said they have been, as contrary to your claim that it is impossible to balance DPS so long as any have a raidbuff.

Do you really think rDPS is enough to judge?

I already explained in detail why it isn't.

VPR isn't overtuned it is perfect

It outperforms all other DPS classes, including all "selfish" DPS classes, even including those in direct competition (e.g., SAM) and those under tighter role competition constraints (e.g., BLM). Remember, SAM and BLM offer nothing else, and BLM comes at greater opportunity cost to bring.

By a wholly classic definition of "overtuned", Viper is objectively overtuned.

As for making mountains out of molehill utility...

Monk's single heal per 90 seconds does not sufficiently compensate for Viper's 5.6% output lead over it (at 95th percentile) in rDPS+aDPS. Why? Because if even if the damage it heals were to provide an added healer offensive uptime, consider how many Fall Malefics, for instance, it would take to generate 5.6% of Monk's damage.

Should the heal have a cost to maximum DPS if given for "free" (no Chakra cost, etc., for use)? Of course. But that cost to maximum on-paper striking dummy damage should be in keeping with the extra damage that can be provided to the raid through that heal.

And since there is not a single mechanic that requires Reply of Earth to survive, on average that's simply --at best-- another healer filler attack GCD. Here, the 5.6% damage increase more than arguably keeps the party far safer than the heal does during prog, and then is hugely preferable thereafter.

BLM/VPR/SAM is the only true DPS jobs in this game

You realize the only "support" utility DRG, NIN, etc., provide... is damage, right?

we are not asking for something isn't logical here weather you remove utility or make it some person job to do it.

I don't know what this is meant to mean.

[Connor]

The long term solution will be to treat Ranged as a single category for the purposes of LB generation and 1% damage buffs (i.e. combinations that break from the 2/2/2/2 format are considered non-standard, similar to how it currently works for solo tank and solo healer violations). Then DPS and utility balance really only matters within a given role category (tank/healer/melee/ranged). At that point you could probably turn Phoenix Down into a role action for Ranged jobs, such that you can bring any combination of two Ranged that you like.

It’s a cool idea, but I don’t think this would be possible with the current role skill system? Either you end up with phys ranged getting a bunch of caster support tools they’re essentially incapable of using (Swiftcast, Lucid, Surecast, Sleep I guess but nobody uses that anyway lol). Or we’d end up with casters getting a bunch of random physical skills like Head/Foot Graze and Arm’s Length.
Though saying that, having Summoners whack an enemy over the head with a book and silencing them would be extremely comical lol, like the enemy is so shocked by what you’ve just done they can no longer concentrate on their actions.

I feel like collapsing ‘ranged’ into one category simply isn’t possible so long as the role skills exist, unless they were completely reworked for said merger. Though, maybe they should look into the role skill system itself too, since it’s mostly sat untouched for a while now

[Lyth]

I feel like collapsing ‘ranged’ into one category simply isn’t possible so long as the role skills exist, unless they were completely reworked for said merger

If 8.0 plans to overhaul the existing job designs, then I think revising the Role Action system would be a really good starting point. A lot of Role Actions, as you've pointed out, are archaic, and some primarily have value in niche content like Deep Dungeons. I don't think they've really thought about the system since Stormblood.

I think if you took away damage interrupting casts in general, you could turn Arms' Length into a General action available to all jobs, like Sprint. You likewise could remove Second Wind and give every job a standard 'Potion' General action that restores damage on a fixed recast, with a trait-based upgrade to adjust the potency with level (Hi-Potion, X-potion). You could likewise integrate the various Stuns and Interrupts into a singular Interject, perhaps with a Heavy or Slow additional effect.

Specific to Ranged, the main thing that you would want to carry across is an Addle equivalent. I'd also replace the various raises on Ranged jobs with a Phoenix Down role action with a fixed recast. The Magical Ranged jobs are all very different in their degree of MP management, so I think the likes of Lucid would be better suited as a set of job-specific actions. It's really only Swiftcast that you'd need a more specific solution for, but that may end up being job specific as well.

Likewise, a lot of the more niche Physical Ranged role actions probably could have these integrated as additional effects on their toolkits. I think Petolon could probably be reworked into a combat-based movement tool similar to Expedient, so long as there were appropriate constraints around its recast and reapplication. I want to see more universally useful Role Actions in general.