We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[ApolloGenX]

Again, as long as the "challenge" in the game is team jump rope..you only have dps and a tank...with minimum heals. The design is constricting. No crowd control, no resource management, no haste, slow, whatever...it's all about mechanics with nominal healing and someone to mitigate dmg.

[Raikai]

Again, as long as the "challenge" in the game is team jump rope..you only have dps and a tank...with minimum heals. The design is constricting. No crowd control, no resource management, no haste, slow, whatever...it's all about mechanics with nominal healing and someone to mitigate dmg.

That's precisely the point. People can discuss job/role design as much as they want, but unless the actual encounters involve something more interesting for the jobs than just... 'do damage and keep HP bars full', I doubt we'll ever see more value in individual and group utilities (not talking about +dps% support, which is another beast).

Though, to be honest... it's hard even to speculate on "what ifs" because we don't know really what XIV's combat design can be pushed towards other than just those very chess-like encounter mechanics. We've seen some refreshing stuff in Arcadion, but honestly? For an expansion supposed to focus on great encounter design, I expected something new and exciting, not just their old formula executed very well.

This probably speaks a bit on how drastic the 'job identity improvements' on 8.0 are going to be.

[kaynide]

I mean, this is not a minor thing like tweaking/needing/adjusting abilities. This is asking to change the entire design behind encounter/dungeon/etc building and balancing. For what? It’s not like support is really a needed thing in this game outside of minor abilities.

You also have to remember that the devs are building this game for the candy crush /virtual Disneyland audience. Outside of savage, if they can’t put serious pressure on tanks or healers to keep the party good, why would they even fathom adding a new role type that would invite other players to criticize them not using their buffs right? This game doesn’t even differentiate damage types. We don’t have creatures weak to fire, or poison. Sleep barely works. There is no crowd control. They removed a lot of what mad wwhealers useful (protect/stoneskin) because even that was “too complicated”. Sure, there’s a facade of magic vs physical damage, but it’s very rare even that matters.

The meme “this is a Wendy’s”, is apt. This game, nor its audience, is just not interesting in particularly hard or intricate gameplay. I love hard, complex games just like I love a good steak, but sometimes I just want a cheap burger, you know?

[Payadopa]

Again, as long as the "challenge" in the game is team jump rope..you only have dps and a tank...with minimum heals. The design is constricting. No crowd control, no resource management, no haste, slow, whatever...it's all about mechanics with nominal healing and someone to mitigate dmg.

They threw out the baby with the bathwater, essentially. I have a hard time calling it an RPG at this point. Apart from a couple stats everything else has been removed.

[Lyth]

People have fun with different things though. Even at its most fun, BLM was still pretty low on the player count. Compared to (imo) the least fun job in the game SMN getting a huge amount of players.

PCT has probably has had an even bigger impact on SMN. In Endwalker, SMN was the most played DPS. Now it's the second least played Magical Ranged job in raid content (fourth from the bottom overall). PCT is pretty much a direct upgrade if you don't need the extra Raise.

I think that's the crux of the utility/dps problem. You need parity on both, ideally independently of each other. Otherwise one job just ends up dominating.

[Saraide]

I find it kinda funny how OP says they'll take a dps job with utility all day but their main is listed as blackmage.

[Tunda]

I find it kinda funny how OP says they'll take a dps job with utility all day but their main is listed as blackmage.

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

[Saraide]

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

What group utility do dragoon or ninja bring to the table? Just their damage buffs? That's not utility, that's just how they contribute a part of their damage. Picto is a mainstay in all early groups but not because of its utility. The group shield is nice and all but not why it was chosen in such numbers.

I would also question why this is relevant to you in the first place. Are you a world first raider?

[Lyth]

I think it's both reasonable and essential for players to stay informed about what's happening on a world prog level even if they're not currently involved with it. Even as a mere humble PF enjoyer, you'd find that a lot of those decisions will end up influencing community attitudes towards various jobs in the long run, especially when frustration sets in from repeatedly hitting an enrage after progging through various groups. You can argue that everything is clearable with any comp, but that's not going to stop people for being selective to maximize their chances of success. Double caster did see a lot of use this tier. You could prog a fight as double raise caster to learn the mechanics and then swap out your SMN for PCT for the clear. This was an option previously as well, but I think there were historically a lot fewer skilled BLM players than there currently are skilled PCT players.

Raid damage buffs are covered under rDPS, so I wouldn't categorize them as utility, and you'll probably confuse a lot of people if you do. People tend to muddy the discussion by discussing various other parameters that attempt to represent burst under different circumstances, but they're not entirely accurate. I think P8SP2 did a pretty good job of illustrating this last expansion with Everburn, because the jobs that pulled ahead most certainly were 'burst jobs', but I don't think any of the metrics on the other fights predicted this very well. I think a job like PCT would absolutely dominate under such conditions with alternating downtime and burst.

PCT itself has incredible mobility (nearly 50% sprint uptime), a raidwide shield that has more value than DRK/GNB's job specific raidwide defensives on two fights (had to be brought up, sorry), and a raid heal built into its rotation. It also allows you to optimize on the fly rather than having to plan your movements in advance. This job replaces BLM. The only thing that keeps other Ranged jobs relevant in comparison is a 1% damage buff on Physical Ranged, and access to Raise on the other two casters (and you can be a SMN/PCT main if you like to cover that basis). That's likely why the SMN usage rates are so low as well, because they just get their clear on PCT instead.

Given that the balance has been disrupted, it's probably worthwhile asking questions about what forms of utility and how much damage the various Ranged jobs should bring to the table so that they can all provide unique value.

[Tunda]

I think it's both reasonable and essential for players to stay informed about what's happening on a world prog level even if they're not currently involved with it. Even as a mere humble PF enjoyer, you'd find that a lot of those decisions will end up influencing community attitudes towards various jobs in the long run, especially when frustration sets in from repeatedly hitting an enrage after progging through various groups. You can argue that everything is clearable with any comp, but that's not going to stop people for being selective to maximize their chances of success. Double caster did see a lot of use this tier. You could prog a fight as double raise caster to learn the mechanics and then swap out your SMN for PCT for the clear. This was an option previously as well, but I think there were historically a lot fewer skilled BLM players than there currently are skilled PCT players.

Raid damage buffs are covered under rDPS, so I wouldn't categorize them as utility, and you'll probably confuse a lot of people if you do. People tend to muddy the discussion by discussing various other parameters that attempt to represent burst under different circumstances, but they're not entirely accurate. I think P8SP2 did a pretty good job of illustrating this last expansion with Everburn, because the jobs that pulled ahead most certainly were 'burst jobs', but I don't think any of the metrics on the other fights predicted this very well. I think a job like PCT would absolutely dominate under such conditions with alternating downtime and burst.

PCT itself has incredible mobility (nearly 50% sprint uptime), a raidwide shield that has more value than DRK/GNB's job specific raidwide defensives on two fights (had to be brought up, sorry), and a raid heal built into its rotation. It also allows you to optimize on the fly rather than having to plan your movements in advance. This job replaces BLM. The only thing that keeps other Ranged jobs relevant in comparison is a 1% damage buff on Physical Ranged, and access to Raise on the other two casters (and you can be a SMN/PCT main if you like to cover that basis). That's likely why the SMN usage rates are so low as well, because they just get their clear on PCT instead.

Given that the balance has been disrupted, it's probably worthwhile asking questions about what forms of utility and how much damage the various Ranged jobs should bring to the table so that they can all provide unique value.

I agree, not only black mage who is suffering, VPR and SAM too
SAM replaced by RPR and MNK
VPR is new so everyone playing it but it can be replaced by MNK and RPR
BLM can be replaced by PCT with more burst and utility + heals


giving selfish DPS utility will not only break the identity but it will move DPS jobs more into homogenization, it is not only boring but also less alignment for buffs when someone die if it is 1 or 2 people duty it will be more stable