We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Shurrikhan]

Missed this post before, somehow, but...

Support shouldn't be in 1 sub role

There should be melee support range support magical support

Then, done. We're there. Mission accomplished.

You can increase the extent to which the jobs depend on others to get direct (easily attributed on logs) or situational (not attributed on logs) rDPS value, but you'd merely be expanding what's already there. And that much I'd be fine with, so long as it comes at cost as to keep largely situational tools largely just situational whatever cost to core or DPS buttons to suit that purpose is made up for via increased button-efficiency across the prior kit.

However, there is zero need to create a new role for that express purpose. Doing so would just further homogenize any and every DPS you don't move into this new category by pruning their unique utilities and make jobs previously mostly independent necessarily be relegated to far greater dependence on others and on contexts through that flex-role.

It also hinges on there being more damage than tanks and healers can handle. That is not the case now and, more importantly, is not likely ever to be the case. While an emergency rez has made some sense to spread elsewhere, adding enough damage for a flex role not to be avoided (or taken only for the stat bonus) would only increase the failure points that the devs have made constant, steady changes to flatten out those potential points of failures and/or would worsen the redundancy already painful among tanks' and healers' kits.

But 2bh, I always though that the core of the problem is to have 3 main roles (tank, healer, dps). If we had Tank, Healer, Buff/Debuffer, DPS it would be solved.

How?

So long as the fight ends from reducing the enemy's HP to 0, a buffer/debuffer still ultimately just produces additional dps, and typically in a more direct / less involved form than tanks or healers do (by keeping alive those who can deal the most damage over time).

That's true even if they provide a novel buff that is related neither to healing nor tanking: Grant a player Sprint? That does nothing unless it saves them uptime, and if it that uptime doesn't make the difference between life or death, then it simply grants an extra GCD's difference between average potency per GCD and that of their filler mobile/ranged option.

All adding a fourth role would do is to say "Tanks, Healers, DPS... no more (de)buffs for you." Imagine what you will for cool (de)buffer jobs, but... they're still ultimately going to just be...

• DPS,
• those with kit to manipulate mob positioning, targeting, and effectiveness to increase the raid's overall DPS efficiency including through damage avoided and at-cost heals thereby spared ("Tanks"), or
• with kit centered around keeping the raid alive to keep dealing damage where the amount of extra uptime or reduced risk for such increases the average clear speed beyond what would be possible without them ("Healers").

Any of the cool shit you can imagine from having a very Support-esque job... you can have regardless of whether you quarantine that to a new, separate role.

You just can't make too much of its contribution come from unscaled target counts (all single-target, favoring Light Party play and greatly limiting what comps you can max out your value in... or all AoE, thereby requiring an 8-man party to see full value and leaving you comparatively neutered in 4-man content).

VPR is great and balance as Selfish DPS,
and I think all Selfish DPS should be in the same as VPR.

Then why did you repeatedly claim it needed help?

SAM is also balance as selfish DPS, and from my analysis I think some players who enjoys samurai switch to VPR after its release because how fast and fluent the job is

What evidence would tell you the exact gameplay reasons for someone swapping... to a higher-performing job?

sadly PCT/MNK/RPR cannot be balance in this game with their utility

Yes, they can be. MNK and RPR very frequently have been balanced just fine around the other melee.

VPR and PIC are overpowered outliers simply because the devs overly hesitate to rein back what's OP and will typically misjudge the in-practice output changes caused by their reworks.