We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Tunda]

We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

Not only DPS but also tanks

If there is:
X dps job have utility
Y dps job have no utility but have 2% extra dps

As a raid leader I will take dps job with utility all day

All dps job should be selfish no utility allowed for dps jobs

As I request before:
1- all dps, healers and tanks should be selfish with 0 party utility.

As dps should have 100% dps skills
As healers 50% healing 50% dps
As tanks 50% tank skills 50% dps
2- add new role name it "support"
Support should fill the gap of doing damage and provide utilities
50% dps 50% utilities and buffs

Why?

1- 2 min buffs is 1 person job no more missing alignment
2- improve dps jobs balance by removing utility aspect

We cannot achieve balance while some jobs do 2% less dps but provide 5% dps to all party

It is clearly not fair and not balance

How party will look like?
Light party:
1 dps
1 support
1 healer
1 tank

Full party:
2 dps
2 supports
2 healers
2 tanks

Create separate version of Dancer/ bard / red mage / monk / what ever other job and give them support kit with 50% dps

What do you think?

[Supersnow845]

Locking “true DPS” to 1 slot out of 4 or 2 out of 8 would be a mess in this game, the game already suffers from supports (as in tanks and healers) being 50% of the party while being like 25% of the playerbase

I could see 1/1/2/1 maybe working but it would mess up a lot of the game’s content to rebalance everything from 4/8/24 to 5/10/30

I’d also imagine people who play classes like BRD and DNC like a DPS wouldn’t like being forced into being supports

[Tunda]

Locking “true DPS” to 1 slot out of 4 or 2 out of 8 would be a mess in this game, the game already suffers from supports (as in tanks and healers) being 50% of the party while being like 25% of the playerbase

I could see 1/1/2/1 maybe working but it would mess up a lot of the game’s content to rebalance everything from 4/8/24 to 5/10/30

I’d also imagine people who play classes like BRD and DNC like a DPS wouldn’t like being forced into being supports

DNC and bard is already a support job

The self dps of them are so low to the point where some tanks could achieve their damage

It is so impiguise to play dps job then you find out the job is actually a support

That what happened to me when I start playing ffxiv as archer

Bard as support job didn't fit me so I immediately change the class

[Supersnow845]

DNC and bard is already a support job

The self dps of them are so low to the point where some tanks could achieve their damage

It is so impiguise to play dps job then you find out the job is actually a support

That what happened to me when I start playing ffxiv as archer

Bard as support job didn't fit me so I immediately change the class

DNC and BRD both “support” in the sense they have large buffs that contribute to their rDPS but also have effects that increase their pDPS, they are still 75% carried by their pDPS. If this is your idea of support then you really aren’t changing anything except enforcing 2 selfish jobs and 2 “support jobs” as we currently know them (ie jobs that have non interactive raid buffs they just press because they exist). If you do it this way you need to rip raid buffs out of some jobs that have them because right now it’s 4/9 in favour of raid buffs

True support (ie near zero pDPS potentially zero rDPS as well built entirely around buffs, support and debuffs is an entirely different thing

[Tunda]

DNC and BRD both “support” in the sense they have large buffs that contribute to their rDPS but also have effects that increase their pDPS, they are still 75% carried by their pDPS. If this is your idea of support then you really aren’t changing anything except enforcing 2 selfish jobs and 2 “support jobs” as we currently know them (ie jobs that have non interactive raid buffs they just press because they exist). If you do it this way you need to rip raid buffs out of some jobs that have them because right now it’s 4/9 in favour of raid buffs

True support (ie near zero pDPS potentially zero rDPS as well built entirely around buffs, support and debuffs is an entirely different thing

We don't need true support

We learn from the past true healers are boring 1 dot and 1 glare isn't fun

It is OK to mix and match 2 kits in 1 job as tanks for example

Paladin / warrior / gunbreaker
Are great in their kit 50% dps and 50% tank skills with some party utility

We don't want to replicate healers situation again..
It is OK to have some dpa rotation with 50% support kit

[Shurrikhan]

DNC and bard is already a support job

Dancer's gameplay is no more that of a Support than is, say, Monk. Unless playing in a composition where it's optimal to swap your Closed Position partner about, you just set your stance pre-combat and the rest is automatic. Heck, if outside of those comps you don't count what can be used precombat anyways, Monk has more support tools (AoE heal, AoE healing taken increase, AoE damage increase, personal damage increased from party attacks) and consideration therearound.

Bard? Same number of support abilities, just trading the direct heal for a dispel. The songs are used simply for their contribution to Soul Voice and their Repertoire bonuses.

Support makes up a small portion of either's numeric performance and a far, far smaller portion of the player's skill's influence on that performance. Neither is a Support. They're just DPS with a few random support skills (far less than a HW NIN, Stormblood Summoner, and no more, arguably, than even an ARR BLM, etc.).

How is that any different from what we have now though, if healers die and there’s no RDM/SMN present it’s a wipe and that’s that (unless tank decides to solo it). Jobs like Bard and Dancer having actual healing and utility and not just ‘raid buffs’ would help healers by reducing the pressure, not somehow make them harder

At most, because --given how much of the healer kit is a waste already-- if the "Support" can then meet healing requirements more precisely (i.e., with less excess) while having higher damage, it will be harder to even find a party as a healer.

Any effective cure potency per minute that you are balanced around but locked into makes you a worse choice when it goes to waste, such that if you offer a category of healing-capable jobs that have a lower hps ceiling but higher damage, you simply go from their being inferior when requirements are too high for them to superior when healers' cp output is too high for the content (under typical player familiarity and gear at that time).

To me, the solution then is to simply make healers more flexible so that their maximum theoretical DPS is quite a bit nearer that of DPS but comes at greater cost to healing potential and heals at greater cost to DPS (to about the same result when using a couple at-cost heals per minute, but higher dps otherwise for having converted the would-be excessive oGCD healing into something of use), but alas, what's a solution without systemic convolution (creating new roles out of what should simply be a spectrum, therefore greatly splitting and thereby constraining thematic options for each job)?

[Tunda]

Dancer's gameplay is no more that of a Support than is, say, Monk. Unless playing in a composition where it's optimal to swap your Closed Position partner about, you just set your stance pre-combat and the rest is automatic. Heck, if outside of those comps you don't count what can be used precombat anyways, Monk has more support tools (AoE heal, AoE healing taken increase, AoE damage increase, personal damage increased from party attacks) and consideration therearound.

Bard? Same number of support abilities, just trading the direct heal for a dispel. The songs are used simply for their contribution to Soul Voice and their Repertoire bonuses.

Support makes up a small portion of either's numeric performance and a far, far smaller portion of the player's skill's influence on that performance. Neither is a Support. They're just DPS with a few random support skills (far less than a HW NIN, Stormblood Summoner, and no more, arguably, than even an ARR BLM, etc.).



At most, because --given how much of the healer kit is a waste already-- if the "Support" can then meet healing requirements more precisely (i.e., with less excess) while having higher damage, it will be harder to even find a party as a healer.

Any effective cure potency per minute that you are balanced around but locked into makes you a worse choice when it goes to waste, such that if you offer a category of healing-capable jobs that have a lower hps ceiling but higher damage, you simply go from their being inferior when requirements are too high for them to superior when healers' cp output is too high for the content (under typical player familiarity and gear at that time).

To me, the solution then is to simply make healers more flexible so that their maximum theoretical DPS is quite a bit nearer that of DPS but comes at greater cost to healing potential and heals at greater cost to DPS (to about the same result when using a couple at-cost heals per minute, but higher dps otherwise for having converted the would-be excessive oGCD healing into something of use), but alas, what's a solution without systemic convolution (creating new roles out of what should simply be a spectrum, therefore greatly splitting and thereby constraining thematic options for each job)?

There are instances when we don't require healer in dawntrail
This issue exist and there is no salvation to it

But we have clear issue and clear solution

Supports dps jobs are just better in all cases

Just see parties who kill savage first
All the jobs they take are support some of parties have 4 rez jobs
That means it is optimal to play 2 support 2 healer 2 dps 2 tank
This is the truth

[Shurrikhan]

There are instances when we don't require healer in dawntrail
This issue exist and there is no salvation to it

I'm aware. But someone bleeding isn't a reason to shoot them.

Supports dps jobs are just better in all cases

No. They're better than an alternative when the possible average clear speed with an otherwise optimal party is better with them than the alternative. For short, though, without any utility*, a job with "support" is better than jobs without support when it produces more rDPS+aDPS, and non-redundant rHPS+aHPS than its competing option(s). I.e., when its straight-up more powerful.

No, raid buffs should not even be thought of as utility; if anything they further constrain the party, therefore creating a loss to utility (difficult-to-quantify contribution towards an encounter's ultimate goal), in this case by reducing opportunities to push out a bit more relative potency over the fight as compared to less constrained means of reaching the same rDPS).

If neither its likely nor theoretical value in offensive or sustain is difficult to quantify for a given composition, there is no more reason to call it "utility" than to call Heavy Swing or Cure "utility"; it's just damage or sustain, respectively.

A final note: rDPS alone never tells you something's full strength. If something completely lacks any indirect contribution, then aDPS will give you a basically full picture, but rDPS will never do so, since it completely (and purposely) removes how well that job makes use of others' buffs.

But we have clear issue and clear solution

Your "clear issue" is, judging from your discussion of it, poorly understood, and your "clear solution" would require mangle the identities of a handful of jobs, constraining job identity around an arbitrary and unnecessary bimodal (degree of indirect contribution), and a tremendous amount of developer work for... more than likely a worse result for each issue you've used as reason to make said suggestion.

That means it is optimal to play 2 support 2 healer 2 dps 2 tank
This is the truth

You're both somewhat misunderstanding and overcomplicating the matter.

A job that contributes a portion of its rDPS through a single other player will always pair best with the best possible exploiter of its finite (highest 20s per 120s burst) and constant (highest would-be aDPS overall) buffs. Because that's just math.
Apart from that, you're just following Role stat bonuses, whoever's generally strongest, and equilibrium (the more relative potency per minute there is to buff, the more each scalar is worth, but --assuming balance-- the more jobs with scalars you have, the less original potency you can bring).

We tend to take Viper because it's OP. Because Viper is OP, or if for whatever reason the static has a SAM or BLM, Dancer is competitive for the single Ranger we're forced to take, but otherwise we take Bard... because, atop any extra utility, it's simply brings more total damage than MCH. Etc., etc.

That said, the 2/2/2/2 assumption you have isn't particularly accurate right now, let alone historically:

• 4 support-heavy DPS has at times been stronger (old NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD). Taking just 1 support-heavy DPS job has, at other times, been strongest.
• Even now, unless you consider both MNK and PIC "support" jobs, we don't tend towards 2/2/2/2 for the fastest runs at time of writing.

There is no hard 2/2/2/2 rule, just the wax and wane of balance and some basic math, ultimately bounded by bonuses to primary stat and Limit Gauge generation.

[GoatOfWar]

Locking “true DPS” to 1 slot out of 4 or 2 out of 8 would be a mess in this game, the game already suffers from supports (as in tanks and healers) being 50% of the party while being like 25% of the playerbase

I could see 1/1/2/1 maybe working but it would mess up a lot of the game’s content to rebalance everything from 4/8/24 to 5/10/30

I’d also imagine people who play classes like BRD and DNC like a DPS wouldn’t like being forced into being supports

And they're doing a really good job at making their existing support players not want to play support.

[Raikai]

I feel like people forget that everything turns into rDPS in the end.

If Phys Ranged (outsourced contributions accounted) ends up being so far compared to PCT and BLM, then people play them just because they a) like the job play/aesthetics or b) have a desirable non-dmg utility. Imagine if the !% party composition slot didn't exist, I wonder how many people would bench DNC/BRD/MCH because yes, they do have strong defensive group actions, but those get obsolete very fast as people get more vitality and the healers get more gear or the SMN/RDM rezzes getting useless because people groups don't need that anymore for reclears.

While I like the idea of a support role (purple icon anybody?), I feel it's too much hassle for them to consider that. But the idea of the Phys Ranged becoming the 'bearer' of the 2min meta would certainly make their spot more valuable. Yes, the impact is bigger if they are dead during the 2min marks, but that isn't a big issue since dps only matters when you're getting to see enrage reliably anyway. Every other action that used to make part of the 2min meta (Brotherhood, Divination), could be repurposed into something else.

That would leave just the RDM/SMN problem of their dps being taxed on the rez, and rather than just deleting it, I'd either make the rez available to everyone via a Phoenix Down consumable OR make Ressurection and Verraise have a 3min recast time.