Just got done leveling....

[Krausus]

I think people are missing one of the major points Lux was making and are just focusing on the language used. Sure its great the OP had a fun time, to bad this is far and few in between and the OP loves to blame PLing for it. Sad truth is it was far and few in between before PL was even possible.

Flame if you want I could care less.

[Truce]

I've only been in one PL party in my short-lived FFXIV career (25-30ish), and I had more fun there than I've had in any exp party I've been in since. You can't blame PL'ing for everything. It's really just a by-product of the miserable party experience. :/

[Arcell]

I understand how frustrating and downright depressing it can be trying to find a group pre-30. Even after that alls we can look forward is a pretty short ride from there to cap. Not much deviation in available mob clusters so you get a healthy over dose of Ants, Raptors, and Wolves.

That is why we need to stop going about this half foot in half foot out and up the bar a little. In FFXI when you finally made it to 10 after soloing in suburbs of your home city everyone had to make the great pilgrimage to the Dunes. That was a memoric journey in and of itself and even once you arrived at white bloom eye ruiner vacation beach you still had to contend with getting EXP.

Now I played some FFXI back in the day and went through that same experience you just described. I don't recall anything memoric about it, nor would I call it a pilgrimage. Frustrating is a bit of a better word. I did it all solo up until the dunes so my experience wasn't exactly the best. And even then it wasn't exactly great. Just like in FFXIV, there are a lot of shitty parties out there that make you not want to party ever again.

Not going to lie it was a big hurdle. Yet I feel it was necessary. It shook new players out of the solo play mind set and got them thinking about how they skills and ablilties could make the PT function better. Once from there the freshly sunburnt noobies had graduated into slightly less suckery noobies, but at least they are making progress. And progress is good for building a sense of self worth in time expended on leveling.

Again, good players will do what you described. Good players will look for ways to be more useful in a group setting. Good players will build up their skills. Bad players will do none of that, regardless of how they level. Likewise, good players will do all of those things regardless of how they level.

We need to slow down the leveling process. Really make players feel the weight of their EXP and how it is going to flow. Instill the notion that leveling is not going to be fast but it can be progressive. Let them earn their levels. Entice them with new WS they finally get to use and spells that will make them even better at their vocation! This will give players more job identity. Allow them to take pride in their choice and the effort they put in to level it.

Though my leveling was quick I still felt a sense of achievement upon completion. I still looked forward to every new WS I got. I thought of how those would make me better. That's because I'm a good player. Bad players will do none of this.

I will, however, agree that leveling could be slowed down a bit. Not to FFXI levels but I think maybe 3 weeks to a month from 1-50 is reasonable enough. 45-50 shouldn't take hours. The 1-25 range is so quick that we don't get to make use of Shposhae or any of the lower level content.

As you make the game world harder the players will rise to the occasion. If you can PL to the finish. Or even straight grind it in a few days. You take away the opposition which binds us together. I've noticed people are much less willing to lend a hand in this game. There are still people willing to assist total strangers but there is a very noticeable trend of, "Me first, you maybe." (If at all) I blame this on the Devs soft balling the dangers and obstacles that should stand in our way. One may think that if everything is easier and people get stuff done faster they'll have more time to help others. Right?

Nu uh

Again, good players vs bad players. If you make a game challenging, good players will rise to the occasion. However good players will also better themselves without the need of a specific challenge. Good players will take the time to help others if they need it.

I loved helping people in FFXI. It gave me great joy to escort a new players past the aggro mobs on their first passage to the dunes. Help them into the Mines to farm the items for their sub job. Teach them how to attain their Chocobo License. I jumped at the chance to assist others because I *knew* how hard it would be alone. By that I mean damn near impossible. You'll hear ex-FFXI players tell you about the community of the game. How it was unlike anything you'd find in other MMOs. That was a product of NEEDING each other! I mean really really needing a full PT to get much of anything accomplished. It may have been perceived as a hassle from an outsider's viewpoint but we loved it. I feel many of you would as well after the shell shock wore off.

I've had people say the exact thing about the community (in-game) of FFXIV. We've had people join up in our LS who have told me that they love how the sense of community is coming along in the game and how it's still so much better than most MMOs.

I would have to disagree with 100% NEEDING a group to get anything done though. It should be an efficient way to get things done, a better way to get things done and should really only be 100% required in end-game. This game was designed for a more casual audience so things will keep going in that direction. An emphasis on both solo and party content being viable means of making at least some progress.

Imagine a FFXIV where people were always willing to PT up for much wanted EXP. Where you had dozens of leveling locations as you grew higher and had to traverse across the entire world in your quest for power. Where each hour you put in actually mattered and it was a show of strength and resourcefulness when you capped.

This is more of an issue with lack of content due to the game being rebuilt from the ground up. We'll have more things to do in time, just need to be patient. Also people currently ARE willing to PT up a lot of the time for XP.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is this.

Leveling up is suppose to be a major part of the Final Fantasy Experience. It is critical that we cultivate this venue of the game before End Game. While I agree the leveling process right now is very badly implemented and I got a ton more enjoyement out of FFXI grinding. For the simple fact it actually felt like I was accomplishing something and becoming better at my job. There is still much to be learned and gained from partying these levels by the sweat of your own brow. It is paramount that we don't allow ourselves to become complacent with the idea of just PLing to the finish before the REAL game begins. It is cutting out so many potential encounters with friends and LS members alike that at the end of the day we are going to sit back and think to ourselves. "Where is all the comradely? Where is that feeling of being a part of a greater whole? Where are those awesome memories I want to cherish?"

PL doesn't make you a bad player. Leveling "legit" doesn't make you a good player. Personal motivation to be better at your role makes you a good player. I've leveled some classes legit, I play them well. I've had some classes PL'd to 50 and I can play them well. There are many people who I've seen level "legit" who have absolutely no idea what they're doing at all.

Leveling is part of the journey but it shouldn't be the major experience of the game. Interesting mid-game content would be one of those things. Honestly though, I've had more enjoyable experiences and fond memories solely from end-game than I do from any mid-game content or leveling. In fact almost all of my bad experiences with FFXIV are from leveling groups. I share memories with people that I like playing with, pretty much my LS. Didn't have to level "legit" to get them. I feel we have a good amount of comradery going in our group and some of us PL'd.

I found just a few in that great grind back there. I hope I get a chance to form so new ones.

Question is, with the current trend of lack luster sense of challenge, will you?

I'm glad you had a good experience, however you must understand that you are in the vast, vast minority there. I think you're the first person I've ever heard tell a story about enjoying a long leveling party. Pretty much everything I've ever heard, along with my own experiences, has been negative. Part of the reason I don't do random groups or anything really outside of the LS is because of this.

[Rjain]

The golden rule of the Final Fantasy XIV Forums:

It matters not how good or lighthearted a thread is, some ass is going to come and ruin the experience and start a flame war.

[Krausus]

The golden rule of the Final Fantasy XIV Forums:

It matters not how good or lighthearted a thread is, some ass is going to come and ruin the experience and start a flame war.

so called ass did not intend a flame war and so called ass was not the one that continually tried to derail the thread. In fact he tried to stop the flames and turn it into a constructive thread. Could easly change your comment to

"The golden rule of the Final Fantasy XIV Forums:

It matters not how good or lighthearted a thread is, some ass is going to come and ruin the experience and start a flame war and then some dumb ass is only gonna read the first couple of posts and base his opinion of the previous ass on that only."

[Keith_Dragoon]

I saw no "flame war" until people started bashing/flaming Lux for catching onto Zaaku's hidden(not realy) anti-PL pitch. Sure he may have came on abit aggressive but the intent was a "I see what you did thar, but here is my POV" kinda thing. I'm not saying he couldn't have reworded it alot better but the intent was not to derail or debunk the OP but shed his POV on the whole subject of PL vs Anti-PL.

People seem to overreact alot on these forums. >.>

Also: Tails!

[Edgecrusher]

Guys, i think the REAL point, besides the fact that non-pl's can be fun and just as rewarding, if you want is THIS

I just wish there was better content inbetween 1 and 50.

Lux is absolutely correct in this at least, what is there to do at lower levels besides leves and toto-rak? not a damn thing, hell even toto-rak is just a GC seal farm as it stands now. like say for instance DH was a lvl 30 instance as well at toto-rak, or if they would have just made more lower level interest in general we'd not have this discussion/argument now. like for instance i'm gridanian in game right...let's see...tam-tara deepcroft and the mun-tuy cellars could have been perfect places besides toto-rak to put 60 minute low level dungeons if toto-rak is min 25, you could have made tam-tara say like min 15ish maybe and mun-tuy maybe 35? it would have gave people plenty of reason to go besides the moogles. (which at this point is the only reason some people even bother with the maze that is the shroud)

In thanalan as well they could done this with copperbell and nanawa, in fact what real reason was there to go to either silver or golden bazzar until they put an AF quest or the achievement unlock? They could have made those opening points to low level instances, put some type of starting quest in ul'dah.."there's a secret cave entrance in the golden bazzar...investigate secrets of an old underground ruin..." yadda yadda. i could go on but my point is..there is even on this STILL copy-pasted map, plenty of places they could have put instanced spots...even coerthas is just about empty except for natalan, DH and AV no?

the fact is, they put everything in for 45+ ...then when people pissed and moaned about the grind instead of making the grind more enjoyable by adding more low level things to do/farm/pt on, they behaved like a good drug dealer and just threw the pl crack and had half the game population smoking at the pipe ever since. i do not pl, i have said that before, i don't fault those who do...i do not attack those who do...i see no need, i just go on a person by person basis for the pt's i'm in, i have had good and bad but my point is...THE GAME implemented it...yoshi-p pretty much gave his seal of approval, campaigning on the abolishment or boycott of it is futile when the people in charge will not put any low level treats for the players.

I understand Zaaku all too well, and i do applaud his efforts, but i am also a realist. the reality, is they are pushing all the chips to the center of the table for 2.0, and little else is going to make a difference or matter until then, even the stuff they DID promise has gotten pused back a bit, yes they make up for it by offering that legacy and welcome back campaign, but the fact is, leveling isn't high on the list. so, do like i do...level at a pace you want, level your favorite classes first, and if a person wants to rush by and pl, tip your hat, say good day and just walk the path you want, not the one others try to make you walk.

[Arcell]

Agreed Edgecrusher. The bigger issue is that there's nothing to do in the mid-level range, especially 30-45. 30-45 has to be the most content barren range of the entire game. You can grind or do leves, that's about it. We will eventually get more content for the barren ranges, until then it remains an issue. We basically blow through 1-25, do Toto-rak and then there's nothing until 45.

[Keith_Dragoon]

Agreed Edgecrusher. The bigger issue is that there's nothing to do in the mid-level range, especially 30-45. 30-45 has to be the most content barren range of the entire game. You can grind or do leves, that's about it. We will eventually get more content for the barren ranges, until then it remains an issue. We basically blow through 1-25, do Toto-rak and then there's nothing until 45.

That and low level Ifrit fight does not even give rewards for that range, it was built just as a pre-req for the hard mode and nothing else.

[Zaaku]

I'm glad you had a good experience, however you must understand that you are in the vast, vast minority there. I think you're the first person I've ever heard tell a story about enjoying a long leveling party.

You've made some decent points and there will always be 'bad' players who cap out regardless and I'm sure there are people who've learned how to do a good job even after being PLing 90% of the way. Those are what I like to call exceptions. Just by virtue of basic logic if you make the process in which one must undertake more challenging, take longer, and require them to actively participate. You will train people to become and more adept at the task. Those who are not suited for it will drop out or be denied PT's since they will gain a reputation for not being able to handle their responsibilities. Not to mention it will not be fun for them if they repeatedly fail to accomplish what their role is designed for. Someone can fake it for a few days of leveling but hardly 4-5 weeks.

What you say is may be true in the general sense but making the standards more adversarial will thin out those radical numbers and give us a more stable population of people you can rely on.


Also while I respect your opinions I must make one small correction to your post. It is in fact the poeple who want faster, easier, less difficult leveling process that are in the minority. As per the latest Forum poll. Most people here enjoy having a hard time