Viper changes prove 8.0 will not add job complexity

[Leonus]

Yes, but people were already able to enjoy the class while playing it sub-optimally (overcapping or dropping NG), while others enjoyed what NG brought to the table. So, this patch changed pretty much nothing for group A, but made group B very unhappy. That can't be it, chief.

So, from what I recall, no matter what happened group B would have been unhappy. The only way to make group B happy was to keep it exactly how it was, the status quo, at the “exclusion” of group A.

None of the changes made forcibly exclude group B, it just further includes group A. Group B then will make a choice on whether or not they like the changes and wether to stay or hop ship… but they are not and never were excluded.

That’s my interpretation. I myself and more for making the content harder and the jobs consistent. I also don’t have a problem with NG, but it was not and never was interesting to me. It was just something I had to do and tried to do flawlessly. They could have just extended the timer for me and I would have rolled with that too. What bothers me is when people have a hard time grasping mechanics when the jobs have been streamlined. That’s what bores me about the game.

[ovIm]

So, from what I recall, no matter what happened group B would have been unhappy. The only way to make group B happy was to keep it exactly how it was, the status quo, at the “exclusion” of group A.

None of the changes made forcibly exclude group B, it just further includes group A. Group B then will make a choice on whether or not they like the changes and wether to stay or hop ship… but they are not and never were excluded.

That’s my interpretation. I myself and more for making the content harder and the jobs consistent. I also don’t have a problem with NG, but it was not and never was interesting to me. It was just something I had to do and tried to do flawlessly. They could have just extended the timer for me and I would have rolled with that too. What bothers me is when people have a hard time grasping mechanics when the jobs have been streamlined. That’s what bores me about the game.

Group B would have remained happy were no changes done, Group A would have remained happy as they would not have changed their playstyle.

You are trying to misunderstand what I am saying on purpose, and honestly, I have no interest in explaining things further. Enjoy your time :v:

[Leonus]

Group B would have remained happy were no changes done, Group A would have remained happy as they would not have changed their playstyle.

You are trying to misunderstand what I am saying on purpose, and honestly, I have no interest in explaining things further. Enjoy your time :v:

You aren’t seeing a different perspective other than your own on purpose. So I agree, no further discussion between us is needed.

[LisseyCrowe]

So, from what I recall, no matter what happened group B would have been unhappy. The only way to make group B happy was to keep it exactly how it was, the status quo, at the “exclusion” of group A.

None of the changes made forcibly exclude group B, it just further includes group A. Group B then will make a choice on whether or not they like the changes and wether to stay or hop ship… but they are not and never were excluded.

That’s my interpretation. I myself and more for making the content harder and the jobs consistent. I also don’t have a problem with NG, but it was not and never was interesting to me. It was just something I had to do and tried to do flawlessly. They could have just extended the timer for me and I would have rolled with that too. What bothers me is when people have a hard time grasping mechanics when the jobs have been streamlined. That’s what bores me about the game.

... What?

If you don't think removing any part of a job excludes the people who enjoyed said part, you cannot claim that the people who didn't enjoy said part were being excluded before. Playing Devil's Advocate only works if you do it in good faith.

[Leonus]

... What?

If you don't think removing any part of a job excludes the people who enjoyed said part, you cannot claim that the people who didn't enjoy said part were being excluded before. Playing Devil's Advocate only works if you do it in good faith.

That’s not how that works. Exclusion involves gating access, not opening it. Not liking something because something is removed is a choice. Nothing they did stops you or causes issue with you playing. It only affected your enjoyment which is a personal/individual thing.

[Morr_Ar]

Who was excluded with the prior version of VPR and what aspects of its design were exclusionary?

[Leonus]

Who was excluded with the prior version of VPR and what aspects of its design were exclusionary?

The people who wanted to play it but found it difficult to in harder content because of constant hot bar staring and “business”? This inevitably leads to player exclusion because… you know… people are assholes.

[Supersnow845]

The people who wanted to play it but found it difficult to in harder content because of constant hot bar staring and “business”? This inevitably leads to player exclusion because… you know… people are assholes.

High end content has expectation of competence, you simply cannot remove friction in high end content, it just doesn’t work. In casual content it doesn’t even matter anyway if you dropped noxious

There is no end to this stupid removal of friction argument, I don’t know if your actual main is GNB but let’s assume it is, what if I complained that the cartridge system is excessive staring at my hotbar and I went into no mercy without double down, obviously bad design cartridges need to go

[Leonus]

High end content has expectation of competence, you simply cannot remove friction in high end content, it just doesn’t work. In casual content it doesn’t even matter anyway if you dropped noxious

There is no end to this stupid removal of friction argument, I don’t know if your actual main is GNB but let’s assume it is, what if I complained that the cartridge system is excessive staring at my hotbar and I went into no mercy without double down, obviously bad design cartridges need to go

No one argued that higher end content expected competence. The issue here is players drive that threshold unnecessarily through description that varies.

To complete content in this game you don’t have to be the best of the best. You just have to be good enough. It’s the players, who aren’t even the best of the best pretending that you have to be that inevitably gate content for other players when they don’t meet their own personal standard.

That’s not how that works. Exclusion means gating access, no access was being gated. Two can play dictionary.

You can play any job you want at any skill level you want. If people are mean, report them. For someone supporting a "different perspective other than your own", yours sure seems pretty closed off. "These people had less fun than they do now! Why can't you accept that your enjoyment went down in exchange!".

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.

It is how it works when players inevitably gate access because they don’t allow suboptimal players to complete in content that you don’t actually have to be the best of the best to complete. You just have to be good enough. You see it all over the forums with people openly talking about logs and trying to shame people for not performing to the max of what a job could be performing. It’s not hard to see the implications of it. It’s on display every day, even in game.

Literally had a party last night that was making fun of a viper last night in a learning party that was doing less damage than the set before I arrived. That’s just a recent example. This eventually gets worse over time and as they lack in performance because “they have too much to pay attention to and business” they feel as though they can’t play the class they want due to them not being able to perform and social perception levels of the job. That is gating but may not be directly. There are places I can go, but where I may not be welcomed. Even though I have access or the ability to be where I want, gating can still happen via social expectations and norms (just an example).

I don’t believe players playing suboptimally ‘inevitably’ leads to player exclusion. I watched VPRs drop their NG during the opening weeks of the new raid series, and no one was kicked or publicly criticised. Most FFXIV players are forgiving of suboptimal play, outside of content where playing as optimally as possible becomes more of a requirement.

‘Exclusion’ implies players are blocked from participating in some way, when the issues you have described can be overcome with practice and experience. VPR, even prior to these changes, was on the easier side of job difficulty scale.

Where exclusion might happen is in Savage content or Extremes, where playing closer to optimally becomes more of a requirement - but that expectation is applied to every job.

From what I’ve seen, most players are not very forgiving. Though, you are possibly right, “inevitably” is a bit strong, however I’d also say that it is far more common than people would like to think it is. Most players are concerned about their experience, and their experience only. Fair enough, most of these people here are nothing but 1s and 0s showing up on your screen in a game. They mean nothing more to you in most cases. I also see people talk very poorly about other players in game and remove them from parties because they played sub-optimally. It’s never happened to me personally, but I’ve witnessed it a lot.

“Your DPS is too low, I’m kicking you out” or the Sam has lower dps than the RPR so they kicked the sam. All the while I’m running the parse and the biggest contributor to not meeting requirements was unnecessary deaths.

I can see why when you throw a high APM class with “random” actions to press and “double weaving” it could be problematic. I can see it and that’s why I’m not upset about it. In the grand scheme, to me, they removed a timer. It wasn’t hard, it wasn’t game changing, it was something I made little decisions off of before. It was a mini game. Some people found that hard and stressful, others, not so much.

I personally don’t think any of the classes are particularly difficult with practice, but what I find easy, someone else may not. I don’t knock them for it either. Especially when the change doesn’t really affect my own personal enjoyment of the class. Some found NG fun, and good for them (they could have kept it, extended the timer, or did what they did and got rid of it like they did). Not saying you are knocking people either. Just that other feel gated by the class and probably other players and that it does happen in this game, where you don’t have to be “perfect” outside of maybe ultimates.

I also find it weird that people wanted positionals removed, there was a huge outcry against removing positionals… then they remove NG and didn’t touch positionals… and people are even more upset. It’s just weird to me.

[LisseyCrowe]

That’s not how that works. Exclusion involves gating access, not opening it. Not liking something because something is removed is a choice. Nothing they did stops you or causes issue with you playing. It only affected your enjoyment which is a personal/individual thing.

That’s not how that works. Exclusion means gating access, no access was being gated. Two can play dictionary.

You can play any job you want at any skill level you want. If people are mean, report them. For someone supporting a "different perspective other than your own", yours sure seems pretty closed off. "These people had less fun than they do now! Why can't you accept that your enjoyment went down in exchange!".

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.