Thread: Viper changes prove 8.0 will not add job complexity

Originally Posted by Leonus

So, from what I recall, no matter what happened group B would have been unhappy. The only way to make group B happy was to keep it exactly how it was, the status quo, at the “exclusion” of group A.

None of the changes made forcibly exclude group B, it just further includes group A. Group B then will make a choice on whether or not they like the changes and wether to stay or hop ship… but they are not and never were excluded.

That’s my interpretation. I myself and more for making the content harder and the jobs consistent. I also don’t have a problem with NG, but it was not and never was interesting to me. It was just something I had to do and tried to do flawlessly. They could have just extended the timer for me and I would have rolled with that too. What bothers me is when people have a hard time grasping mechanics when the jobs have been streamlined. That’s what bores me about the game.

... What?

If you don't think removing any part of a job excludes the people who enjoyed said part, you cannot claim that the people who didn't enjoy said part were being excluded before. Playing Devil's Advocate only works if you do it in good faith.

It's a very grim portent to be sure.

If the VPR change is anything to go by, the job designers appear to believe that any level of friction that a job might challenge a player with is a negative.

‘Struggling to maintain the debuff during boss fights that force a disengage or during a double reawaken (or triple if you actually don’t understand how to play the job) - we’ll fix that for you!’

What the change amounts to is the sanding down of any level of nuance playing VPR might have involved - NG was not just a single mechanic in isolation, but something that factored into every decision you made on the job at a moment to moment level.

The scope to minimise Dread Fangs for potency optimisation, or prematurely reapplying the buff to allow breathing room to disengage for a mechanic is now absent from the job. You no longer have to think about anything before your double Reawaken (because the self buff timers were more generous and refreshed more frequently that NG) or a disengagement scenario.

While fun is experienced subjectively, it is less subjective to say that VPR now involves less moment to moment decision making, and now operates on a stricter rotation that previously. There are less opportunities with the job to plan ahead and feel rewarded for doing so.

If such a change is considered a positive by the job designers, then I have little confidence for any changes coming in 8.0.

Originally Posted by ovIm

Group B would have remained happy were no changes done, Group A would have remained happy as they would not have changed their playstyle.

You are trying to misunderstand what I am saying on purpose, and honestly, I have no interest in explaining things further. Enjoy your time :v:

You aren’t seeing a different perspective other than your own on purpose. So I agree, no further discussion between us is needed.

Who was excluded with the prior version of VPR and what aspects of its design were exclusionary?

Originally Posted by Morr_Ar

Who was excluded with the prior version of VPR and what aspects of its design were exclusionary?

The people who wanted to play it but found it difficult to in harder content because of constant hot bar staring and “business”? This inevitably leads to player exclusion because… you know… people are assholes.

Originally Posted by Leonus

That’s not how that works. Exclusion involves gating access, not opening it. Not liking something because something is removed is a choice. Nothing they did stops you or causes issue with you playing. It only affected your enjoyment which is a personal/individual thing.

That’s not how that works. Exclusion means gating access, no access was being gated. Two can play dictionary.

You can play any job you want at any skill level you want. If people are mean, report them. For someone supporting a "different perspective other than your own", yours sure seems pretty closed off. "These people had less fun than they do now! Why can't you accept that your enjoyment went down in exchange!".

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.