Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[RaevusAstra]

Thrash mobs already die very fast when people are at the max item level for the content.

Yes, but the problem is that trash just feels like busywork until you get to the boss. It feels like it's impeding your way to mechanically interesting stuff. WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

[Ramiee]

Criterion has some pretty interesting trash mechanics, they could be put into certain normal dungeons but be less punishing. Would also help for training people for criterion, soft version of something that hits way harder when doing the hard dungeon.

[RaevusAstra]

Criterion has some pretty interesting trash mechanics, they could be put into certain normal dungeons but be less punishing. Would also help for training people for criterion, soft version of something that hits way harder when doing the hard dungeon.

When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

[aiqa]

Yes, but the problem is that trash just feels like busywork until you get to the boss. It feels like it's impeding your way to mechanically interesting stuff. WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

The fix to boring thrash mobs isn't to give WAR a godmode. And I strongly disagree with the demanding wider changes before accepting the removal of a godmode from an MMO.

The challenge to thrash mobs in FF for tanks is to optimize AD's and stuns, healers to bridge the difference between incoming damage and tank sustain. And for dps to kill the mobs fast enough so tanks and healers don't run out of their ogcd defenses and heals. WAR completely removes that dynamic.

And it's not only thrash mobs where WAR is far to strong. At bossfights WAR contributes far more then any other tank.

When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

No we don't. It's impossible to solve the WAR issues while WAR has equal sustain against groups of enemies as DRK+WHM. Or when WAR has equal ogcd healing output as WHM in solo or small group content.

[RaevusAstra]

The fix to boring thrash mobs isn't to give WAR a godmode. And I strongly disagree with the demanding wider changes before accepting the removal of a godmode from an MMO.

The challenge to thrash mobs in FF for tanks is to optimize AD's and stuns, healers to bridge the difference between incoming damage and tank sustain. And for dps to kill the mobs fast enough so tanks and healers don't run out of their ogcd defenses and heals. WAR completely removes that dynamic.

And it's not only thrash mobs where WAR is far to strong. At bossfights WAR contributes far more then any other tank.



No we don't. It's impossible to solve the WAR issues while WAR has equal sustain against groups of enemies as DRK+WHM. Or when WAR has equal ogcd healing output as WHM in solo or small group content.

If you think WAR has as much healing as a WHM vs bosses, we won't agree on anything.

[Terhix]

WAR is the only job in the game right now that gives you a dopamine hit when dealing with trash, which is not necessarily WAR'S fault, but speaks to a bigger problem of the content in my opinion.

The mental gymnastics lol

[Alice_Rivers]

I think taking inspiration from criterion mobs is a reasonable idea, maybe throw in the aforementioned esuna/manoeuvre factors, combine with some unavoidable raidwide damage from them would make for some interesting gameplay independent of tank/healer balance. I'm always in favour of things not being a straight dps race.

I do think there would be a requirement to monitor and adjust (if and as necessary) the tank/healer balance if such change was implemented.

Aiqa - I do understand and agree with your concerns about WAR but now we've finally got the guy on side for balance changes, lets collaborate on our common ground, if we can get some consensus on content design maybe we can talk about tuning tank/healer balance to better fit that design. You do raise a good point about the bosses, the speed and mechanic design in better in DT than in EW but I would like to see more party mechanics that a tank can't just brute force, anyone got thoughts on that?

[aiqa]

If you think WAR has as much healing as a WHM vs bosses, we won't agree on anything.

You can just count the healing potencies, it's not that difficult. Including the +30% healing from healer trait, WAR and WHM have similar ogcd healing potential in solo and small group content, even when not including target scaling from bloodwhetting. That isn't an opinion.

[RaevusAstra]

So I was always of the opinion that there should be balance where the content demands it. I've made my opinion known in a few other places. That said, I also know for a fact that the dev team will always have two big questions: How realistic is this to do, and will this make as many people happy as possible? And my question to add on to that is: why does it matter?

A very common sentiment when tanks and healers didn't have all these tools was that there was a big imbalance on responsibility. When you feel like you have no agency over yourself, it becomes more frustrating to deal with other people who may or may not play well, so the XIV team delivered by giving all jobs the ability to heal themselves or otherwise mitigate damage, even though that's technically the job of the support players (technically, tanks have healing and healers have mitigation too). It makes all sorts of jobs less stressful to play, especially in scenarios like fates and solo duties.

Back to the matter - what's the real root of the problem? Healers feel like their role is being infringed upon, because tanks, WAR being the biggest offense of them, have tools that give them agency. Nerfing them is a very easy thing to do, but unfortunately, it violates infringing on players' enjoyment about what feels good about that job to them. And I know the dev team's inaction up onto this point is precisely because they hear players that LOVE WAR and don't want it to change to a job that sucks again. And to be honest, there is little else engaging about fighting trash in dungeons, we've been doing the same exact thing since stormblood. Keep in mind, contrary to belief, I don't believe you should be invincible to feel good playing a game.

So, we come back to the problem - healers feel useless. How do we make them useful? Give a healer something only they can do. WAR isn't invincible if a mob pack or boss puts a debuff on them that reduces the healing received, or they stack on poison that gets progressively worse over time. Healers feel needed, and tanks can keep their powerful tools. What's more, it's easier to retroactively place throughout the game (have *this* mob inflict *that* debuff in a dungeon) and even for Trust AI to deal with, and then we can expand on things, like bonus effects for cleansing, or different types of things to be cleansed. And it could be further expanded on in new expansions. Healers feel engaged and necessary, tanks feel like tanks, you can make previously boring enemies like trash more interesting, and you don't have to change people's kits to take away from them without giving anything back.

It's just one example they can come up with, but my point is that they need to balance a solution that makes as many people as possible happy while being realistic. I do believe that nerfs are called for when necessary. But there's problems in the content that goes beyond balance imo, especially regarding enemies who are frankly unmemorable busywork.

[Ramiee]

When we introduce Criterion mobs into the conversation, we kind of solve the WAR problem then, don't we? Cause now we're not talking about healing off 6-15 enemies, we're talking about 3-5, which people in this thread seem to have established WAR seems fine at.

Not to dismiss your statement at all, I would love an easy version of Criterion trash in normal dungeons. Just pointing out that's something to consider, too.

Cap lifesteal aoe anyway. But yeah I think trash doesn't need to always be a large group, having small elite enemies sometimes could be fun, easier to kite too so having to move them around for environmental hazards can actually be reasonable in roulettes.