Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[RaevusAstra]

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

[Ramiee]

Honestly my only problem with warrior personally is bloodwhetting's CD, really feels like it should be the 2 cd minute ability maybe 90 second because of how strong it is. I'm not completely opposed to it existing in its current form, only against it existing with such a short CD.

[Terhix]

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

The only thing tanks got this expansion is an upgrade to the job specific 30% mit into a 40% + some extra healing or shield varying between 500 to 1000 potency per minute (ironically WAR is on the high end here due to Damnation being a hot).

Meanwhile Bloodwhetting on 5 targets is 19200 potency healing per minute and 960 shield potency per minute, for a combined 20000 potency. DRK is still heavily healer dependant and getting extra HPS equal to 3% of HPS of Bloodwhetting does not change that. GNB has more HPS potential than DRK and I have not seen anyone complaining about it, nor have I seen GNB run synced experts with 3 dps. If there is any tank that should be able to run dungeons without a healer it should be PLD, and only if they are hard casting Clemency a lot.

No, it's not "all tanks", yes WAR is unique in how overtuned it is.

[CKNovel]

The mental gymnastics lol

"Nice argument, unfortunately, I've made a meme depicting you as a Simpson character"

Let's make a quick exercise. If Warrior, the job, is broken, then it would be "broken" in all content, correct? But that's not the case.
When working with acid, the liquid, if your plastic bottle melts and cannot contain it, do you lessen the potency of your solution? Not necesseraly, you can adapt the container.

On top of that we're talking about dungeons of all things.

You can just count the healing potencies, it's not that difficult. Including the +30% healing from healer trait, WAR and WHM have similar ogcd healing potential in solo and small group content, even when not including target scaling from bloodwhetting. That isn't an opinion.

Quite a bad faith example, using WHM which mechanics revolves around Lilies and GCD rather than oGCDs.

[Alice_Rivers]

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

While it is expected that people get better tools as levels go up and power increases, is it not reasonable to expect the threats posed to increase an a manner commensurate with that player power increase? There is this strange phenomenon in this game where the first dungeon has more damage dealt to players than what came before and after, the damage drops off from there with rare exceptions and then in DT for the first time of noticing (having come to the game in EW) the post-story dungeons appear to do more damage than the story ones. It seems to me that the content designers are not increasing enemy power in line with player power very well, if at all.

[Terhix]

If Warrior, the job, is broken, then it would be "broken" in all content, correct?

Warrior is broken in dungeons, capping healing on Bloodwhetting effectively only affects Warrior in dungeons. Are you seriously trying to argue that because WAR isn't broken in all content it should not be fixed in the content in which it is broken?

[aiqa]

Quite a bad faith example, using WHM which mechanics revolves around Lilies and GCD rather than oGCDs.

Even with counting lillies the healing potential is similar. Here is a back-of-the-envelope calculation I did in the healerstrike thread.

[excelsiorjones]

One more thing I forgot to mention, and going back to this being not just a WAR problem...

As expansions progress, players expect better defensives/sustain abilities for tanks, and better healing abilities from healers. Nerfing WAR is a short-term solution to an otherwise growing problem - Tanks will continue to get stronger, and as they mitigate more damage, healers may heal less. Unless the content demands, we will have another issue to deal with later on, when the FF team either makes uninteresting changes, or goes and gives something to tanks that will do what WAR abilities are doing right now. All they need to do is buff HoC or Aurora anymore and we could just as easily be talking about GNB instead.

I wish they'd focus on giving tanks more niche support skills at higher levels, rather than just engage in a damage-mit arms race. PLD's wings and cover don't get a huge focus as part of their kit, but feel amazing when they save someone, for example. Maybe give WAR an esuna or expedience, DRK a interrupt that charges Dark Arts if it actually disrupts a cast or the ability to zombie a dead player, or GNB a kardia or a player-targeting gap closer, for example. Those are probably bad examples, but stuff like that. I don't care if I only use it 1-in-10 fights or only when shit hits the fan, but give me the power fantasy of having just the right tool to save this run.

[CKNovel]

Warrior is broken in dungeons, capping healing on Bloodwhetting effectively only affects Warrior in dungeons. Are you seriously trying to argue that because WAR isn't broken in all content it should not be fixed in the content in which it is broken?

I think way too much people are exaggerating with the use of "broken". Strong? Sure. Broken? No.
Broken would mean it breaks the game, if PLD could shield bash anything and nothing had resistance, it would be broken. If BRD could permanently root any monster and kill it safely from afar, that would be broken (something that actually happened in other MMOs).

If we nerf Warrior because of casual content people will move on to the next thing and nerf Paladin.
Plus, just let warriors having their funs, no one is actually harmed, just the ego of some healers.

It's just chill story more that would end up being easily cleared. Who cares if Warrior heals a million HP, for once we get something that steps out of the lines and people immediatly wants to nerf it.

[Terhix]

I think way too much people are exaggerating with the use of "broken". Strong? Sure. Broken? No.
Broken would mean it breaks the game,

Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it. All expert dungeons are for is grinding weekly tomestones, and if doing it without a healer is faster (and it is) then people will be doing that (and they have through the whole Endwalker). PLD at least has to trade DPS to cast Clemency so even if it can do the same content with 3 dps, it's not automatically The Best Way To Do Expert Dungeons TM.

Whether you want to call that broken or not is really irrelevant. Warrior is overtuned in dungeons, period. You either buff all tanks to the same level and then tune trash in every single dungeon from level 56 onward accordingly, which is a lot of work, or you just adjust one problematic ability on one job and the whole problem goes away.