2 melee 2 ranged standard

[Galvuu]

snip.

As an aside to what you posted, RDM (and SMN, to a lesser extent... and even healers) have this strange property that they scale with encounter design. That is, fights centered around body checks make the rez irrelevant. Fights not centered around body checks and with lax dps checks make the rez extremely powerful. I've posted on another thread that my personal thoughts on the matter is that while caster balance before DT isn't ideal, it's not terrible either, and I think the rez should stay since it gives some semblance of a distinction between casters.

For the remainder of my discussion, I'm excluding SMN, because SMN isn't really a caster right now. Further, I have not leveled and played RDM yet, so I cannot say anything conclusively. But, from what you're saying, it feels to me all three casters have the idiosyncrasy of being able to sacrifice burst potential for uptime. BLM has it the worst out of the three (needing to consume its nuke and most powerful dps steroid, Triple), PCT has it the best out of the three. I don't want to go into PCT optimizations much, but beyond the obvious cost of delaying your next CYM combo, Holy in White also interferes with optimal PCT burst (in which you start mid CYM combo on Y). These are small losses, but you do consider them if you try to push the job to 100%. This seems similar to the argument that RDM's mobility has some cost in burst (although I did play RDM in EW, I progged Dragonsong with it and did some Abyssos with it too, so if it's anything like that, you have some liberty on where you put your "filler" melee combo between burst phases). This is so ubiquitous to the caster role it almost feels like their version of "positionals"- a unique aspect of their optimization (the ability to trade some amount of burst for uptime).

I think currently PCT has adequate mobility for the fight design they're trying to push. I think it's very much comparable to EW BLM (although EW BLM was harder to setup and execute in practice, it's a similar feeling in terms of shifting the pieces of your rotation around to place the mobility parts where you need them while minimizing any losses of uptime or losses of damage in your burst window). I don't know how RDM compares, but if it suffers in comparison, I think studying what makes PCT work and apply it to RDM might be warranted (just like I think Smudge should be the blueprint for all caster dashes). Similarly, I feel that, ideally, we'd revert BLM back to its EW state (which plays somewhat comparably to PCT).

My entire tirade loops back to the original point- I think the last dps should be potentially a melee, caster or physical ranged with sub 5% rdps difference between each comp. PCT is the only caster and ranged job that can match the melees on some metrics in some percentiles. The only way to "break" melee supremacy is by allowing other roles to come within a small margin of their damage potential. If PCT is overtuned, it's by less than 1%, which is a different picture than what some people paint when they say it's "massively overtuned"- and the logs seem to back this assessment up, as far as I can see. I concede your point that fights should be designed assuming a melee might be in that 4th dps slot, much like they should also assume a caster might fill it. If the design is such that the 4th dps slot incurs a small loss as a melee and/or caster, I might live with it. I'm slightly bothered by the fact double melee has been the optimal choice for 5 years after playing a meta where we had 3 best comps depending on fight.

[W00by]

Can you spot these people? Neither can I, because they don't exist. As soon as I start noticing their patterns again, I just stop engaging because I know it's a waste time.

If other can find fun in this, more power to them - I don't.

Forgive me, but Ggwppino literally just said "PCT is not very mobile by default."

You are not literate if you claim there is no one in this thread saying that PCT is immobile. Besides, I think arguing with someone who is saying PCT is mobile is a sort of implicit claim that it isn't. I am not misrepresenting anything.

YOU are the one who attacks people ad hominem in these threads, but I digress. Once again, I ask you to share a log that proves that you are a high level caster player and can argue against me based on merit, and once again, you won't 'cus you're not. I fully disproved your log analysis earlier, but you ignored that because you can't admit when you're wrong.

Argue with me on my merits or leave. Which you will, 'cus you can't.

[Ggwppino]

I'm not taking Lyth's comment at face value. I've provided substantial reasoning for why I believe PCT is a highly mobile class.

But your argument doesn't make much sense. "PCT is not very mobile if you don't use its mobility tools."

Okay, by that logic, DNC is not very mobile if I choose not to move. I totally could just stand still and never move. It's within my rights to play that way. But no, if I use the tools the job has, it's very mobile... right?

So if PCT uses its mobility tools, it's very mobile. "By default," no job in the game is mobile because they can't move without a human being to press WASD.

Simple, simple. Because either you do it with examples or it's all rhetoric: I have to go from point A to point B.
I'm a dnc, what do I do? I continue with my rotation and move on.
I'm a PCT, what do I do? Have I planned for this movement? then I put myself in the situation of being able to move without losing uptime, Have I not planned? Oh shit.

[W00by]

But if you have planned, the job is mobile.

And you always have the ability to plan, so the job always has the ability to be mobile.

Therefore ... the job is mobile.

[Ggwppino]

But if you have planned, the job is mobile.

And you always have the ability to plan, so the job always has the ability to be mobile.

Therefore ... the job is mobile.

Absolutelly, if there a good player, but the skill of the player is important! You cannot trivialize!

[W00by]

I don't know how RDM compares, but if it suffers in comparison, I think studying what makes PCT work and apply it to RDM might be warranted (just like I think Smudge should be the blueprint for all caster dashes). Similarly, I feel that, ideally, we'd revert BLM back to its EW state (which plays somewhat comparably to PCT).

It really depends. There are some mechanics where RDM is doing great and some mechanics where it really struggles, and of course you have the ability to manipulate it. We talk about "swapping the dualcast window" so that odd GCDs are casted and evens aren't, or vice versa, and some mechanics accommodate that well and others don't. For instance, Mountain Fire in EX1 is really punishing to a poorly placed Dualcast window, but is very easy if you set up properly. It's also worth noting that Dualcast windows are harder to swap now that Acceleration gives 2 instant casts, but slightly easier too now that Swiftcast is a short CD, so it's six on one had, half dozen on the other.) When talking about melee combos, there are fights where it's free and fights like Honey B. Lovely where getting both melee combos off during 2 minutes without griefing your melees by dropping puddles under the 3 of you is prohibitively difficult. It just depends, like any job. And you do get one filler burst combo per 2 minute, but even this filler burst combo technically should be saved for burst phases so you can triple Scorch under pot, so it's weird. I think PCT suffers a little less moving certain things out of burst windows than RDM does -- moving comet out of Burst is a lot less punishing than moving an entire melee combo out, and Hammer and the CYM combo are not as far apart in potency as Red Mage's burst and Red Mage's general filler rotation -- but the paradigm does exist for all of them.

I'd like to see double caster get played more, because I think every comp should be warranted. I just also don't think it's as suboptimal to go double caster as people think right now, since we tend to fixate on damage above all else.

[W00by]

Absolutelly, if there a good player, but the skill of the player is important! You cannot trivialize!

I am not trivializing planning! I have openly said that planning is necessary for the job to be mobile! But the job! Is still! Mobile! Just because you aren't good enough to use the tools doesn't mean they don't exist! That's like saying SAM is a low damage DPS because you personally aren't good at doing damage with it!'

Dancer is OBVIOUSLY more mobile than pictomancer, no one needs to win that argument yet you insist on making it! Argue with the fact that -- for a caster -- Picto is mobile, or stop spinning in circles!

[Ggwppino]

I am not trivializing planning! I have openly said that planning is necessary for the job to be mobile! But the job! Is still! Mobile! Just because you aren't good enough to use the tools doesn't mean they don't exist! That's like saying SAM is a low damage DPS because you personally aren't good at doing damage with it!

Instead, unfortunately, yes, you are. Because you've legitimized the fact that it could be a phys ranged, and it's blatantly false. Because you are trivializing planning.
It is objective that dnc does not have the same uptime problems as pct. Yet you are legitimizing it.
However, on the fact that pct, if played well, allows you to preserve uptime and damage a little better than other casters (smn excluded), I agree. But we need to stop trivializing mobility, uptime and damage planning.


EDIT:

Argue with the fact that -- for a caster -- Picto is mobile, or stop spinning in circles!

You added it after I replied and I didn't read it right away.
But that's okay, we agree, I told you from the beginning that I didn't disagree with what you wrote, what I wanted to point out was that you started it all by legitimizing the nonsensical reasoning: “casters are equal to phys ranged.”
And that's really crazy thinking. Because, precisely, it is an argument that trivializes planning. Easy.

[kurkee]

Instead, unfortunately, yes, you are. Because you've legitimized the fact that it could be a phys ranged, and it's blatantly false. Because you are trivializing planning.
It is objective that dnc does not have the same uptime problems as pct. Yet you are legitimizing it.
However, on the fact that pct, if played well, allows you to preserve uptime and damage a little better than other casters (smn excluded), I agree. But we need to stop trivializing mobility, uptime and damage planning.

This feels a lot more grandiose than the reality of playing PCT in all current content. You kinda just see what's happening right now and decide if you're going to prep or not. You can even be caught out and use your damage neutral instant cast tools to slip away. You can even just not use those and smudge a quarter of the arena's length without thinking about it. As someone that does play picto and loves it, I'll be the first to trivialize it. It's basically uncontested.

[Ggwppino]

This feels a lot more grandiose than the reality of playing PCT in all current content. You kinda just see what's happening right now and decide if you're going to prep or not. You can even be caught out and use your damage neutral instant cast tools to slip away. You can even just not use those and smudge a quarter of the arena's length without thinking about it. As someone that does play picto and loves it, I'll be the first to trivialize it. It's basically uncontested.

And I would add, that when you use Smudge, you almost certainly fall within the recast time. I know very well that compared to a blm, its movement tools are much more reasoned to keep uptime. But the comment all stemmed from the fact that casters are supposed to be phys ranged. And I find that very but very absurd.