2 melee 2 ranged standard

[W00by]

snip.

No worries! Similarly, you've made some great points that I appreciate. As someone who played RPR for all of last expansion, once I had reached the height of my personal play, parsing just became "Did I crit Communio/PH under pot this time? No? Back to the mines I go!" so I can strongly relate with what you're saying. And raid buff jobs obviously have it worse, too. My best friend parsed Dancer in PF in Anabaseios, and it was pretty much "is my Dance Partner good this party?" or the log didn't matter. So I definitely agree the maximum shouldn't be considered very strongly at all.

And fighting games aren't a perfect analogy, because you don't have teammates, true. League is a better comparison, and we've seen how characters like Ryze and Azir are absolutely unplayable because they balance around competitive, so your words have a lot of truth in them.

I also don't think PCT is poorly designed at all! I love Picto and would like to see more jobs designed like it, not less. But moving away from numbers for a second, I think part of the reason it seems like I'm disagreeing here is because I'm talking about "design" balance, not "numerical" balance. Frankly, as long as a job won't be hitting hard enrage unless it's played by a giga parser, I don't care if jobs are numerically over- or under-powered. But I think "design strength" should also be factored into the discussion, and it's harder to judge by numbers on FFlogs.

For instance, I'm playing RDM this tier, but I think anyone would agree RDM is numerically weak. It always has been and always will be. But RDM is not a "weak" job. In the content where RDM is strong (prog and PF with inconsistent players), I think there's a strong argument that it is THE strongest job in the game, because the chain resurrection is just too darn good. And I've been an RDM soft-kinda-sorta-main since Stormblood, so it's been frustrating that my job is weak and strong at the same time -- it's the strongest job in content I don't do and among the weakest jobs in content I enjoy, so I often stop playing it.

When I talk about Picto not being balanced around the lowest end, I more mean its design, not its numbers. There are a lot of people here arguing that PCT is immobile, but if the devs were to balance around this concern by adding more mobility (influencing its design, NOT its numbers), then for the high end, it becomes so ridiculously mobile that it's even stronger mobility wise than it is now. Its "design strength" at the moment is huge, with a raid buff, flexible mobility tools, and high personal damage, and I think it's important to consider this when talking about future changes to PCT.

And for what it's worth, I think the "future changes to PCT" should be, like, nothing. I love that job, it's freaking awesome, and I'd rather see abysmal jobs like BLM patched up than see PCT hurt. But when the casual community makes claims about jobs that aren't true (PCT is immobile when it really isn't), it can influence their design in ways I think are harmful. PCT is cool because of how interesting its tools are, but what if the CYM combo lost its hardcasts or they made Holy potency optimal to make the job more mobile? It'd lose things that make it interesting.

So that's what I mean when I say, when judging the tools, the upper end must be considered. Because I don't want jobs changed to be more boring when it's not necessary because people aren't engaging with them. Otherwise, from a numbers standpoint, I agree with you a lot!

Edit: It's also worth explaining that I've been maining Viper this expansion, so part of my fear of this kind of thing is reactionary. My job existed for 6 days before a rework got announced for a community that isn't playing the job at a level where things like positionals or timers matter, and I live in constant fear of that rework every day. I'd hate to see PCT suffer the same thing when it's so well designed.

[Ggwppino]

I'm not attempting to trivialize it. In fact, a lot of my discussion of why it's hard for RDM to use its mobility tools sometimes is a direct demonstration of me not trivializing it, because I'm explaining why it's hard to do! How can that be trivializing something?

It's not trivial, but just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's impossible. And the crux of my argument is that, while planning mobility is difficult for ALL casters, it's harder for some than others. PCT is on the easier end.

My point is based that it all stemmed from the fact that rewd in his very first comment pointed out how what was written by Lyth was nonsense. And you attacked him by saying how the PCT is so extremely mobile that it implicitly legitimizes Lyth's comment. But it's crazy!

Having said that, I would put SMN in the easier end. Since it actually has practically nothing to plan. Not the PCT.
The PCT has a smoother slidecast in the first filler combo than the BLM.
But it has Motifs that last as long as a Despair but are cast more frequently. Furthermore, the tools are very similar (clearly not the same):
CIB -> Xeno
Hammer -> Triple
Smudge -> MA

[W00by]

I wasn't trying to attack anyone, I just wish Rewd would back up his claims with evidence. I think it is fine to insinuate that PCT is very mobile, and therefore, Lyth's comment isn't nonsense, but all rewd did was just call his take crazy. I wanted evidence rather than attacks. Rewd was the one attacking someone, not me.

Obviously, I think SMN is basically a phys ranged already. If any of them are phys ranged, it's that one. But PCT undeniably has strong mobility tools. It's also worth contextually stating that in the past, rewd tends to attack me ad hominem rather than engage with my argument, so I wanted him to provide evidence-based analysis rather than just call someone crazy.

Point is, I was never trivializing anything, I just don't think you can actually make the claim that PCT isn't mobile just because that mobility isn't as automatic as something like a physranged. Mobility in this game isn't a constant -- tools are weighed by how well they can get you through mechanics. And PCT's tools are better at that than the other casters (except SMN, which is barely a caster as is constantly observed.)

[Ggwppino]

The PCT is not very mobile by default, but it allows planning margin.

And trivializing planning by comparing it to a macro category that has guaranteed uptime it's crazy.

[W00by]

I was comparing it to RDM in my post. . .? Not aiming?

[Ggwppino]

But you chose to attack the thread of the discussion from this nonsense, legitimizing it. You can have written anything you want, but it's crazy that you decided to look not at mobility, but at the tools that allow the PCT to be very mobile, after having practically trivialized its optimization.

The smn instead has problems with the drift of the buff when the fight is interrupted. The rdm has problems over long distances, we all noticed it in p7s and p8s p1, problems that it doesn't have when the mechanics don't require for this long distance. The PCT, on the other hand, will never have this problem, if, perhaps, he sacrifices some damage to use a hammer outside of burst. Maybe or maybe not. But it is, in fact, planning.

They designed better the PCT, is it a PCT fault?

[W00by]

I'm not attacking anyone. You're calling my points nonsense. That's way more of an attack. I'm just civilly disagreeing with the claim that PCT is fundamentally immobile.

Also, I fail to understand how "the tools that allow you to be mobile" and "its mobility" aren't the same thing...?

I'm the one who said casters have to plan, so obviously I'm not trivializing it. I raid on caster. At a pretty high level, too, if I do say so myself.

My point is and always has been that PCT has strong mobility tools that make it on the more mobile end of casters because of their flexibility. If you can disprove that PCT is mobile in the hands of a good player, feel free. But I'd appreciate not being called nonsense with no founding. And if you read my other posts, you'd know I said that PCT is really well designed. But it's really well designed ... and mobile. At the same time. Two things can be true.

[Ggwppino]

I'm attacking the nonsense written by Lyth, but I'm attacking the fact that you decided to take it at face value, when it's crazy.


Mobility arises, in fact, from the player's skill in planning.
I'm not saying that what you wrote next is wrong, I'm saying that a class is mobile and knowing how to get the right mobility from that class are two completely different things.
I repeat: The PCT is not very mobile by default

[W00by]

I'm not taking Lyth's comment at face value. I've provided substantial reasoning for why I believe PCT is a highly mobile class.

But your argument doesn't make much sense. "PCT is not very mobile if you don't use its mobility tools."

Okay, by that logic, DNC is not very mobile if I choose not to move. I totally could just stand still and never move. It's within my rights to play that way. But no, if I use the tools the job has, it's very mobile... right?

So if PCT uses its mobility tools, it's very mobile. "By default," no job in the game is mobile because they can't move without a human being to press WASD.

[rewd]

My point is based that it all stemmed from the fact that rewd in his very first comment pointed out how what was written by Lyth was nonsense. And you attacked him by saying how the PCT is so extremely mobile that it implicitly legitimizes Lyth's comment. But it's crazy!

Having said that, I would put SMN in the easier end. Since it actually has practically nothing to plan. Not the PCT.
The PCT has a smoother slidecast in the first filler combo than the BLM.
But it has Motifs that last as long as a Despair but are cast more frequently. Furthermore, the tools are very similar (clearly not the same):
CIB -> Xeno
Hammer -> Triple
Smudge -> MA

I don't enjoy being this harsh but W00by has the bad habit of making things up and purposefully misrepreseting what you say so they can win an argument with themselves. Or at least they do with me, maybe I'm special.

They have done it again in this thread after I quoted someone that said PCT could be called a phys ranged. I said it was an insane take, he quoted me, mentioned me both directly and indirectly more than once and acted as if I said that it was insane to say that PCT has mobility.

If you pay moderate attention, you will start noticing their patterns again. Recently, for example, they said:

There are a lot of people here arguing that PCT is immobile

Can you spot these people? Neither can I, because they don't exist. As soon as I start noticing their patterns again, I just stop engaging because I know it's wasted time.

If other can find fun in this, more power to them - I don't.