Please add positionals back to Twin Snakes/True Strike on Monk! Now is the best time!

[Ramiee]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

[Lorika]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

[Unyqua]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.

If positionals are removed in the only situation where they could otherwise limit encounter design... they literally do not (cannot) limit encounter design except by enticing the developers not to make EVERY boss a wall boss, which "limits" only complacency/stagnancy.

In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

(Yes, I've left as irrelevant what has no relevance to positionals and therefore the thread.)

[Unyqua]

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

I never said that they should remove them. I rather would have them focus on adding job mechanics that are unique to that one job in a way that is fun and fits the job fantasy.

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

I see the target ring as a UI element and sometimes its hidden by the enemy model.

Also to account for my buff/debuff comment, the OP was pointing out that with the removal of the Dot and Damage buff it would be fun to add more positionals.

[Mikey_R]

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

History lesson then. Monk's positionals were always as they are now, just a damage loss, it didn't prevent you from progressing through the forms.

Dragoon on the other hand had 2 weaponskills, Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive that had positional requirements. Heavy Thrust was a standalone weaponskill that provided a damage buff if you hit the enemy from the flank, if you missed the flank, you didn't get the buff. Impulse Drive was the combo starter for the Chaos Thrust combo (Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust), Miss the rear positional on Impulse Drive, it then didn't combo into Disembowel (which was a piercing resistance down at the time). Before the end of ARR, heavy Thrust was changed so that the buff was always applied, but you lost potency and Impulse Drive lost the positional requirement entirely and it was instead placed onto Chaos Thrust, as it is now.

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

If you haven't tried it, how can you say you don't like it. You never know, it might be fun. We aren't saying to give every melee a ton of positionals either, but instead, provide a broad spectrum so that if you don't like positionals, there will be a melee job that suits your needs.

[jerome15]

I did ARR early release and my first class was pufilist (Because it was my main on 1.0).... After the first 3 dungeon i just stopped playing Monk because of the positional.
Not because it was hard (it wasn't), because, seriously, that wasn't fun at all.... And, at that time, we had TP, so there was a lot downtime with auto-attack only.

But even so, postional don't add complexity at all, Twin Snake buff, Demolish dot, greased lighting, while i never liked them, added complexity because you had to include the upkeep in your rotation.... While positional? Who care i have True North.... Positional are just an useless and bad on FFXIV(i was already using positional in 2004 with my Treasure Hunter on Lineage II.... And thoses were real meaningfull postional not just a potentcy boost)

Positional on this game are just plainly bad.... It's either they scrap them completly or they rework the system to make it really fun and meaningfull. because as it stand, only min-maxer care about it

here the facts, you don't like them? well not my problem... And stop saying it's "because of you" than you quit because it's not... t's just you than can't cope with the fact that you are in a minority that love the meh gameplay mechanic that FFXIV positional are.

it's amazing how you can be so dismissive about why someone would quit the game because they like something you don't to the point you even make up an excuse as to why someone would quit, but yet you're putting words in my mouth....and you might wanna check the likes in these forums when talking about positionals. Your posts aren't getting any likes which are talking against positionals while posts in favor of positionals are getting likes. my post is actually up to 7 likes already and your reply has zero. goes to show who the real minority is.

[Unyqua]

If you haven't tried it, how can you say you don't like it. You never know, it might be fun. We aren't saying to give every melee a ton of positionals either, but instead, provide a broad spectrum so that if you don't like positionals, there will be a melee job that suits your needs.

Well since we still have positionals its nothing i cant imagine, so i dont really need to play it.
the primary issue i have that its not visualized. you dont feel it. its just a number that gets added.
Its not represented in gameplay.

[Ramiee]

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

[Mikey_R]

Well since we still have positionals its nothing i cant imagine, so i dont really need to play it.
the primary issue i have that its not visualized. you dont feel it. its just a number that gets added.
Its not represented in gameplay.

There is a difference in thought when you have to consider positionals on all GCDs as opposed to every now and then. It forces you to find more creative ways to get around mechanics, including positioning yourself when you gap close.

The fact positionals don't have feedback is a separate consideration entirely and isn't really a factor in whether positionals should be increased or not. However, Monk had a good one where Bootshine was an automatic crit from the rear, which later meant you got an automatic chakra generation. It also isn't as simple as adding a secondary status effect. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Knockback, Knockdown and stuns. Knock back makes people cry. WHM used to have it with Fluid Aura and MCH with Blank, both done damage, both pushed mobs out of the AoE attacks, so it just became inefficient to use and if they did work on bosses, it was just annoying for the rest of the party as well.

As for Stuns and Knockdowns, which are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing (prevents the mob from attacking), in big packs, it won't matter, not that positionals are a consideration there, then for any bosses, especially in more recent time, they will just be immune to them, making them flavour for no reason.

They could provide more audio/visual feedback as to when you hit a positional, make the hit sound more meaty as an example. However, the important question then is, just because you got the feedback, would that necessarily change your mind about how you feel about positionals in general?