Please add positionals back to Twin Snakes/True Strike on Monk! Now is the best time!

[SpookGhoulman]

I agree, having more positionals on monk would definitely make the job feel better

[Unyqua]

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

Its probably because they designed the combat around the 2m window. So you have to align you hardhitters in a way you will catch this window.
So in the end they will design all classes to fit that pattern. I know its not that popular with all people, but its probably the easier way to balance stuff and i must they the FF14 team does a better job in balancing stuff than other MMOs.

Sustained damage class designs play like a pepper mill or a barrel organ.

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

Thats the issue with "Fun", its subjective. Some players like positionals, some dont and some dont care. maybe some people really enjoy monk now because they like the style.

I generally think they will adjust the class design to fit into the encounter design and not the other way around.

The thing is especially monk has to be accessible because its a job that starts at lvl 1. reaper and viper are job that start at level 70/80 so you need to get there first.
Maybe it can get more complex in the later levels.

And i think when you look and the newer jobs you can see what job design SE is aiming for.

[Lorika]

Ok i will made in simple : reintroducing postional to Monk is like asking a Martial Artist Master or a Pro Combat Sport fighter to reintroduce the unnecessary excess movement, that he trained for years to remove, into his fighting style... I think you know the answer.

Also, more mechanics just make a gameplay more cluterred and.... Cluterred ≠ Complex.... And a good exemple is Chess : simple rules, simple mechanics, accessible to everyone but still have a lot of depth and complexity.
Something doesn't need tp have a lof of mechanics or feature to provide complexity and depth.

And for the Homogenization : no it doesn't exist. My illustration with Racing Car engine still stand : it's not because you have the same engine that the perfomance and how to pilot them are the same... And the answers provided by a few post above prove me that some people can't understand that, or don't want to see it and just use bad faith to respond.

If you want a real homogenization here what it is : Lineage II, the 3 dagger user class (Assassin style class using dagger) which are : Treasure Hunter (Human), Abyss Walker (Dark Elf) and Plain Walker (Elf), in 2004 they had the exact same active skills (same name, same icon, same effect).
The difference was made by the racial stat and 1 passive skill for each (Treasure Hunter had a passive that boosted the attack speed, Abyss Walker had one more level in Critical Power Boost and Plain Walker had one more in Critical rate boost)
This is what ihomogenization is.

[Ramiee]

Its probably because they designed the combat around the 2m window. So you have to align you hardhitters in a way you will catch this window.
So in the end they will design all classes to fit that pattern. I know its not that popular with all people, but its probably the easier way to balance stuff and i must they the FF14 team does a better job in balancing stuff than other MMOs.

2 minute meta is generally hated by pretty much anyone who does hard content so it was a massive mistake. Also the game isn't well balanced at all instead of certain classes being undertuned or weak patch by patch like other MMOs in ff14 entire roles are undertuned for expansions.
Phys range has been terrible since TP stopped being a thing, look at how often machinist gets rebalanced. Healers get dropped asap from comps to add in an extra DPS during reclears because they aren't important anymore and melees are so powerful double melee has been standard since SHB. This game is not balanced I don't know where people get this idea from.

Thats the issue with "Fun", its subjective. Some players like positionals, some dont and some dont care. maybe some people really enjoy monk now because they like the style.

I generally think they will adjust the class design to fit into the encounter design and not the other way around.

There's 6 melees design them for 6 different players if you lose your favourite job to these redesign, tough, SMNs lost their favourite job and never got it back you live with it too.
Then encounters stagnate because there's lack of imagination in how the encounter will interact with unique job design aspects. SB was amazing because the game has great encounters and great job design.

The thing is especially monk has to be accessible because its a job that starts at lvl 1. reaper and viper are job that start at level 70/80 so you need to get there first.
Maybe it can get more complex in the later levels.

And i think when you look and the newer jobs you can see what job design SE is aiming for.

Black mage the hardest caster starts at level 1, scholar the hardest healer starts at level 1, ninja the busiest melee starts at level 1. This was never a standard for accessibility most of the historically hardest jobs started at level 1 look at old summoner. Adding positionals to monk doesn't even make it super hard anyway, it's a very basic mechanic.

Well considering Sage was a carbon copy of sch and reaper/viper was incredibly basic then compared to pictomancer which is one of the most unique jobs we ever got I really don't know what the job design they're aiming for is.

[Rydia_Misuto]

With Dawntrail, Monk is now easier and more accessible than it ever has been. No timers to maintain, no DoTs to watch. The rotation is rigid regardless of downtime.

Given that positionals were initially removed from Monk with the introduction of Masterful Blitz in Endwalker to prevent the job from being overly complex, this seems like the perfect time to reintroduce SOME of its old positionals.

Given how much we use Perfect Balance and opo-opo attacks, adding positionals back to Bootshine/Dragon Kick might be a bit much for some people (though I would personally love for those skills to have their positionals back.) But adding them back to Twin Snakes and True Strike seems like the perfect middle ground for people who miss Monk's old job identity, without being too punishing for players who aren't great at hitting positionals.

Of course, I would be happy with any amount of positionals returning to Monk. But it really feels like a piece of Monk was lost when it was reduced to only having 2 positionals in its entire kit. Part of the draw of Monk was the dance you did around the boss. That was super satisfying, and it made sense for there to be a job that engaged with positionals more than the others.

Please add some positionals back to Monk!

Desperately want to feel like with how much I have nothing better to do than hit dragon kick bootshine dragon kick bootshine that I'm doing anything at all besides mashing two buttons. Having to move between each felt good, especially on gamepad - it mimicks a street fighter style quarter-circle motion between your big hits, very nice! Positionals returning adds any amount of depth to a rotation that has had zero changes but to simplify it in two expansions now. This would be a huge improvement.

[StriderZessei]

it's amazing how you can be so dismissive about why someone would quit the game because they like something you don't to the point you even make up an excuse as to why someone would quit, but yet you're putting words in my mouth....and you might wanna check the likes in these forums when talking about positionals. Your posts aren't getting any likes which are talking against positionals while posts in favor of positionals are getting likes. my post is actually up to 7 likes already and your reply has zero. goes to show who the real minority is.

You can't post on these forums if you haven't logged into the game in the last month. How recently did you quit?
Even if you HAD actually quit, that wouldn't make you right, considering we're talking about subjective opinions (what is or isn't fun.)
The fact you you have more likes doesn't make you right, either. It just means you're being critical of SE on a forum where it's popular to be critical of everything.

[ElHeggunte]

Why though? I’ve always been indifferent to positionals: I don’t think they’re difficult, but I also don’t think they’re fun or engaging or realistically add anything to the class either. Shifting a few pixels to the left or right as necessary is kind of just busywork, not exactly riveting gameplay. There isn’t even a visual indicator that you’re landing them, and the potency difference is small enough that just eyeballing the damage doesn’t tell you anything either (unless you dig through the log). I saw someone mention an audio difference, but I’ve played MNK since 1.0 and I can’t say I’ve ever noticed, but I guess I can perk my ears the next time I’m handing out fades.

I really don’t care if SE puts more of them back, but I also wouldn’t mind if they stayed gone. Years of muscle memory still have me moving for raptor skills and Bootshine anyway so nothing has ever changed for me. You may as well just pretend they’re still there instead of asking SE to reimplement them.

[Shurrikhan]

You may as well just pretend they’re still there instead of asking SE to reimplement them.

Given that any other contributor of relative potency would likewise just be compensated for if removed, the same would go for Riddle of Fire, or Chakra generation/spending, or even melee range.

Chakra spends two keys to provide less APM and lesser optimization challenge than what Shadowbringers positionals brought over Endwalker/Dawntrail. So what makes positionals uniquely dispensable where, say, Chakra generation is not?

[ElHeggunte]

Spending Chakra and pressing other CDs are actual gameplay mechanics with feedback. Even generating Chakra even though it’s mostly passive, you’re still doing something to generate it and have a little control over its rate. You would notice if those went away. Positionals for MNK are you just moving slightly with an effect that can’t really be eyeballed. There is no tangible feedback unless you’re using a parser or reading the combat log.

I just don’t think positionals ever added anything to MNK because buffs and debuffs didn’t depend on it in the past (Dragon Kick’s debuff may have at one point, though I’m pretty sure it didn’t). The Fury gauge doesn’t depend on it now. Our combo never depended on positionals to function period. Aside from a potency difference (which again, can’t really be eyeballed) they never really influenced gameplay or flow. A lazy monk could stand in one spot and their rotation would look exactly the same as a monk who hit every positional, just with less bodily movement.

You can move between the rear and flank for True Strike and Twin Snakes right now and the gameplay is exactly the same whether they have a positional bonus or not. The only reason not having it right now would matter is if the player is the path-of-least-resistance type who doesn’t move because they don’t need to and they want SE to force their hand.

If positionals did more for MNK than a simple potency bump then I would feel differently.

[flowerfairy]

I think the gameplay of positionals (slightly shifting to the left/right) and the gameplay of Forbidden Chakra (pressing an oGCD the moment it lights up) to be equal in engagement to each other, that is to say not very engaging at all by themselves.


I did like the theme of MNK being the job that has to move constantly to hit sweet spots on enemies. But I do agree there has to be some kind of feedback from the game. What if hitting a positional built up 1/2 of a chakra? Or had a 50% chance to open a chakra on top of critical hits opening a chakra? There would have to be permanent overcap protection but I think it's a nice and simple way to integrate positionals.