You pull you tank question.

[Reinha]

This is what most people seem to not understand. Should is not the same as actually existing. Should I have a healer that doesn't do aoe damage? No. But if I run 100 dungeons, I will find several of them. Should a dps know their aoe rotation by ShB,EW,DT? Yes. But that doesn't mean that will happen every run. If you go to Youtube and type in "dawntrail final trial cutscenes" and find a certain upload that was around 3 weeks ago, 40k views, 36min long, you will see a player that is at the final trial in DT. That is using aoe abilities on a single target boss. That is doing 3-5 oGCD's consistently before a GCD. That is taking 10-15s off of using GCD's. That is weaving slowly to the point of consistently clipping the downtime rotation even. And all of these non-optimal mistakes are made consistently throughout the entire fight and are not just merely misclicks. Should this be happening at Level 100 content? No. But guess what? Someone had them in party for every dungeon and trial they did up to that point. A tank dealt with them at some point. At no point has a tank ever asserted that these incidents happen every run or that they happen most runs. "Should" is not an argument against YPYT because it does not cover 100% of instances, and therefore does not address every situation.

What does that have to do with ypyt? If someone is doing low damage in dungeons it's still optimal to take aggro from them instead of letting them die to autoattacks. Low damage is better than no damage.

[VoidsentStatus]

What does that have to do with ypyt? If someone is doing low damage in dungeons it's still optimal to take aggro from them instead of letting them die to autoattacks. Low damage is better than no damage.

Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die. That is why is it relevant. Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine. When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is. 1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

[Reinha]

Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die. That is why is it relevant. Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine. When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is. 1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

Ypyt tanks don't wait for a wipe to happen to justify turning off their tank stance. They overestimate the incoming damage and act like they are doing the party a favor when in reality, if they actually tried to do their job, they would notice that tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences. Healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon pull since they are designed to be able to heal 10 minute raid encounters.

[VoidsentStatus]

They overestimate the incoming damage and act like they are doing the party a favor when in reality, if they actually tried to do their job, they would notice that tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences. Healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon.

1) "overestimate the incoming damage" -> Assumption
2) if they actually tried to do their job" -> 2nd Assumption
3) "tanking an additional pack has no negative consequences" -> In your estimation, which is less valid than the tank's considering they have more information about the sustain of the pull than you do given you don't know their cooldowns or rotation order they'd use. 3rd assumption
4) "healers will not run out of mp in a dungeon" -> 4th assumption. factually incorrect given any situation of damage in that could necessitate gcd healing is on a timer. you can't spam cure2/benefic2/adlo infinitely even with lucid. healers only using ogcd's to heal is under a prerequisite that there's enough damage to kill the adds before that capped healing output is reached because you are cooldown timer limited. anytime the damage in passes that threshold, you are forced into gcd healing to keep the tank alive, which puts you on a timer. if you go into the right instance with a tank and healer and put them by themselves with no dps, and you put 2-5 sets of adds on top of them, they will eventually die. there's an underlying assumption of minimum damage output that's needed. and that is a /should have this/ situation, not a, impossible to not reach this situation.

[Router]

1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

Only 1 death? Oh man, I'd love if the YPYTs I've seen only resulted in 1 death. The way things usually go down, I'd almost think they're just wiping the entire group out of spite. No way, right?
Also what's with the assumption that the "offending" party is always a DPS? What's the logic behind "sacrificing" a healer?

[VoidsentStatus]

Only 1 death? Oh man, I'd love if the YPYTs I've seen only resulted in 1 death. The way things usually go down, I'd almost think they're just wiping the entire group out of spite. No way, right?
Also what's with the assumption that the "offending" party is always a DPS? What's the logic behind "sacrificing" a healer?

Not always a DPS, just the majority. Most healers aren't stupid enough to draw aggro before a tank. Most of them learn this problem when they cast too strong of a heal and adds the tank even tagged already go to them thus making the tank turn around and slow down the pull due to them being mobbed out early.

If the YPYT didn't result in 1 death, it's because someone else skipped the tutorial in hall of novice and tagged things they shouldn't have or were blind and didn't adjust to the tank.

- Tank has tank stance.
- Tank grabs 3 adds.
- DPS and Heal target 3 adds after.
- 2nd DPS grabs 3 extra adds.

Tank AFK's -> Don't attack or heal to avoid generating enmity that's going to rip it away from the tank. If he dies, that's on him. Whether it was a purposeful AFK, a keyboard/controller disconnect, etc. doesn't matter. You'd treat the situation the same way. If I see my tank not moving for a good second and he's looking even remotely close to death, I'm already running away back toward home base for his respawn. I'm not going to sit there and I already know what's going to happen 10-15s down the line. In most situations, iirc, they de-aggro after a certain range and won't follow anymore regardless.

Tank turns off tank stance -> Doesn't matter. You still see the enmity button indicating when you're about to pass the tank. Stop dealing damage/healing before it gets to that final stage.

Tank goes to single target -> You switch to single target the same as Hall of Novice.

[Router]

Not always a DPS, just the majority. Most healers aren't stupid enough to draw aggro before a tank. Most of them learn this problem when they cast too strong of a heal and adds the tank even tagged already go to them thus making the tank turn around and slow down the pull due to them being mobbed out early.

If the YPYT didn't result in 1 death, it's because someone else skipped the tutorial in hall of novice and tagged things they shouldn't have or were blind and didn't adjust to the tank.

- Tank has tank stance.
- Tank grabs 3 adds.
- DPS and Heal target 3 adds after.
- 2nd DPS grabs 3 extra adds.

Tank AFK's -> Don't attack or heal to avoid generating enmity that's going to rip it away from the tank. If he dies, that's on him. Whether it was a purposeful AFK, a keyboard/controller disconnect, etc. doesn't matter. You'd treat the situation the same way. If I see my tank not moving for a good second and he's looking even remotely close to death, I'm already running away back toward home base for his respawn. I'm not going to sit there and I already know what's going to happen 10-15s down the line. In most situations, iirc, they de-aggro after a certain range and won't follow anymore regardless.

Tank turns off tank stance -> Doesn't matter. You still see the enmity button indicating when you're about to pass the tank. Stop dealing damage/healing before it gets to that final stage.

Tank goes to single target -> You switch to single target the same as Hall of Novice.

You could have just posted "Bend over backwards to satisfy my ego trip" and it would have conveyed the same meaning. Have you tried acting like an adult and communicating with your party instead?

[VoidsentStatus]

You could have just posted "Bend over backwards to satisfy my ego trip" and it would have conveyed the same meaning. Have you tried acting like an adult and communicating with your party instead?

Did the dps or healer do that before pulling the extra adds and breaking what the game taught them in the tutorial area?

[Router]

Did the dps or healer do that before pulling the extra adds and breaking what the game taught them in the tutorial area?

Why yes, in one of my cases the healer did say they were pulling extra. The tank proceeded to say nothing and killed us all. Perhaps I should have assumed every tank is an egotistical psychopath and watched his actions like a hawk? Can't be too sure when the tank will stop doing his job, after all.

[Reinha]

Low damage or low healing with high damage in is how you die.

Assumption. The damage may not be high enough to cause a wipe.

Healers and tanks do not have infinite sustain for any damage output to be fine. And tanks do not have infinite health and cooldowns for any healing output to be fine.

Assumption. Sustain and cooldowns can be enough for an additional pack.

When you have the choice between letting someone die or allowing them to potentially cause a wipe/an inconvenience to you or others in the party, that is what ypyt is.

Assumption. There can be a third choice: tanking the additional mobs, killing them, inconveniencing no one and progressing faster than you would have without the additional pull.

1 death is better than entire group wipe or messed up cooldowns in future pulls or a boss.

Assumption. 1 death can lead to further deaths and/or a slower duty completion time.

____

Instead of making all these assumptions, ypyt tanks should test if they are correct. Keep tank stance on, tank everything and see if the group dies. It'll sting on the ego when you don't wipe and realise ypyt is the wrong approach but it's ok.