You pull you tank question.

[koko-on-da-forumz]

It's fascinating how we need 56 pages to settle this (and spoiler : it will never be settled)

TP sprint, stance dance
Farlemald, cleric stance
You pull you tank
Leylines, healers adjust

Sam freestyle, mana shift
Braindead strats, freecure fish
Floor tank, tank and spank
Resurrect macros

You don't pay my sub
'Shtola gives the fans a chub
Mod beasts, modded arse
all mechanics are for cars
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is that really your best
crit strikes, direct hit
please look forward to it

We didn't start the fanbase
It was always stunning
Since the game's been running
We didn't start the fanbase
We really shoulda knocked it
But instead we hawked it

[Aviatorhead]

Tanks shouldn't be throwing like in ops example. But people who try and speed up the trash by pulling for the tank; why not just ask the tank to pull more? 9/10 times I've seen someone ask, the tank will pull more, and the one time they don't, they typically have a good reason (laggy, theyre inexperienced, they're under equipped, etc). Why not just communicate with your team instead of potentially causing a wipe or getting yourself/someone else killed?

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I think its a matter of respect.

Is the tank getting on DPS case for not using a good rotation? No? Is the DPS still using damage buttons to kill a monster. Yes.

The problem with YPYT isn't just a emotional response - some players playing tanks are not comfortable with tanking 2 packs at a time and are NOT expected to. If your pulling additional packs; it comes across as you telling the tank that you want them to play in a optimal fashion and if they do not feel comfortable with that then I see no difference then tanks beginning to demand DPS target specific mobs or to ensure they are always using positionals.

If a DPS pulls a additional pack I feel they accept all risk associated with doing so. In other MMO's there was a term called "training" where a player would pull additional mobs into a Tank AOEing which could result in the tanks death as they may be lining up their cooldowns. A good example would be a WAR pulls one pack and pops Bloodwhetting....DPS pulls a 2nd pack after Bloodwhetting is now on CD and the tank suddenly finds themselves struggling because that was no how they planned to engage the pack. That coupled with some tankseity and trauma from other MMO's and people training mobs can rapidly lead to a very toxic encounter. As such I would do what is common decency and ask for larger pulls; if you would rather have a long discussion with the tank as to why they prefer smaller pulls vs getting the dungeon over with by pulling 1 pack at a time then I think thats a decision you need to make. If a DPS is pulling mobs it generally is considered a commentary on the tanks performance and so they likely feel put off. I don't think a tank is obligated to pick up mobs in response to a DPS refusing to communicate and begin to dictate the tanks playstyle.

Unless pulling 2 packs at a time has now become required gameplay; I still believe that is a gameplay optimization and the question becomes "Is the tank expected to pull mobs or are the DPS?" because both classes are capable of doing so and in old school games it was often a function of RDPS. However I would lean on it being the tank given they have the tools and threat management is generally their requirement.

I've seriously seen people throw a fit about being asked to use a LB bar while running packs because its generally a net damage increase rather then sitting on a full LB bar for 50% of the dungeon. DPS refused to use the AOE LB so I think its generally a matter of we cannot dictate to a player optimal play and there never really was a established baseline. I do not think being a bad player is against TOS and if a DPS and a tank have a disagreement over how each should play their class; then the answer is for them to not play together.

[yoshinoharu]

The problem with YPYT isn't just a emotional response - some players playing tanks are not comfortable with tanking 2 packs at a time and are NOT expected to. If your pulling additional packs; it comes across as you telling the tank that you want them to play in a optimal fashion and if they do not feel comfortable with that then I see no difference then tanks beginning to demand DPS target specific mobs or to ensure they are always using positionals.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the responsibility of a tank is, then and more players need to be educated. Besides hitting self-mitigation for incoming damage it doesn't matter whether it's 1, 4, or even a THOUSAND mobs hitting you, it's completely out of your hands. Your only job as a tank is to keep hitting AOE buttons, ensure that you are hitting your self-mitigation, and making sure that nothing is hitting your team mates. If someone is 'uncomfortable' pressing rampart to make sure that a pack of mobs doesn't kill them then it isn't even a question about being optimal, they've already failed at being a tank from the outset.

Once you have accomplished those very basic responsibilities, the tank has very little control over whether they live or die and it's all on the healer to supplement your survival, and DPS output to make sure things die before you run out of resources. I think that's the true issue here, which is why we are all saying it's an ego trip: As a tank the amount of control you have is ACTUALLY extremely limited when it comes to multi-mob dungeon pulls, and that lack of control affects the self-image of a tank-player and makes them insecure about their place in the party, which IS a very important part, so they don't do their job and let people die to establish some form of weird dominance, which is so stupid it makes my brain hurt. Once the mobs are in place and hitting you, it is almost entirely up to your group whether or not you live or die (unless you're a skilled Warrior, then you have enough sustain to literally solo everything). Ultimately if you're not comfortable just letting a horde of things beat on you, your literal job as a tank, literally TANKING damage, then just don't play tank.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the responsibility of a tank is, then and more players need to be educated. Besides hitting self-mitigation for incoming damage it doesn't matter whether it's 1, 4, or even a THOUSAND mobs hitting you, it's completely out of your hands. Your only job as a tank is to keep hitting AOE buttons, ensure that you are hitting your self-mitigation, and making sure that nothing is hitting your team mates. If someone is 'uncomfortable' pressing rampart to make sure that a pack of mobs doesn't kill them then it isn't even a question about being optimal, they've already failed at being a tank from the outset.

Once you have accomplished those very basic responsibilities, the tank has very little control over whether they live or die and it's all on the healer to supplement your survival, and DPS output to make sure things die before you run out of resources. I think that's the true issue here, which is why we are all saying it's an ego trip: As a tank the amount of control you have is ACTUALLY extremely limited when it comes to multi-mob dungeon pulls, and that lack of control affects the self-image of a tank-player and makes them insecure about their place in the party, which IS a very important part, so they don't do their job and let people die to establish some form of weird dominance, which is so stupid it makes my brain hurt. Once the mobs are in place and hitting you, it is almost entirely up to your group whether or not you live or die (unless you're a skilled Warrior, then you have enough sustain to literally solo everything). Ultimately if you're not comfortable just letting a horde of things beat on you, your literal job as a tank, literally TANKING damage, then just don't play tank.

Aye and the aggro a tank collects is one of the few things they do have control over; so taking that from them makes them more and more helpless. I also see a few folks talking about how now wall to walling could be considered a ToS violation or how now going to pick up the extra adds could be a ToS violation. I think a good example of "expected" gameplay would be to look at how the Trust system functions. The tank only pulls 1 pack at a time; the DPS doesn't run off to grab a 2nd. In the event that the DPS does happen to grab a 2nd pack - the tank will endeavor to pick up the mobs (sometimes; not always and generally not go far out of their way to do so) which would support the argument except for the fact that when acting as a DPS; the trust system does not go to grab extra packs - therefore making the DPS going out to pull extra's the errant behavior (that is to say not the expected natural flow) the thing that is not expected to be done.

Folks should talk to each other more. If they cannot come to an agreement then they should dissolve the party and move on rather then trying to force the other to capitulate to their desires.

[Reinha]

I think a good example of "expected" gameplay would be to look at how the Trust system functions. The tank only pulls 1 pack at a time; the DPS doesn't run off to grab a 2nd. In the event that the DPS does happen to grab a 2nd pack - the tank will endeavor to pick up the mobs (sometimes; not always and generally not go far out of their way to do so) which would support the argument except for the fact that when acting as a DPS; the trust system does not go to grab extra packs - therefore making the DPS going out to pull extra's the errant behavior (that is to say not the expected natural flow) the thing that is not expected to be done.

Trust tanks also do not run forward from an empty room/corridor on their own, but that doesn't mean that a player tank waiting for a dps to lead the party into the next room is expected behavior. NPC movement is limited by their programming intentionally to allow the player some agency, because it's solo content meant for people who want to have that agency.

However, the trust is consistent no matter what role you play. Whatever mobs are pulled and brought to the tank, all get tanked and killed by the trust NPCs. Without exception. A player tank who is worse than a trust NPC needs to learn to play before stepping into group content with other players.

[Reinha]

Why not just communicate with your team instead of potentially causing a wipe or getting yourself/someone else killed?

99% of tanks are competent enough to pull wall to wall (= 2 trash packs). There is no potential to cause a wipe or get someone killed by hitting the last pack of mobs a couple of seconds before the tank arrives. The reason could be as simple as not wanting to waste procs or combos. The only one getting people killed is the tank with a fragile ego who sees the enemy nameplates of enemies he was going to attack anyway turn a diffrerent color, gets butthurt and refuses to engage.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

99% of tanks are competent enough to pull wall to wall (= 2 trash packs). There is no potential to cause a wipe or get someone killed by hitting the last pack of mobs a couple of seconds before the tank arrives. The reason could be as simple as not wanting to waste procs or combos. The only one getting people killed is the tank with a fragile ego who sees the enemy nameplates of enemies he was going to attack anyway turn a diffrerent color, gets butthurt and refuses to engage.

Disagree.

There are a lot of tanks that especially at lower levels do not handle wall to wall well. For example Dark Knight in Stone vigil has a rough time with some of the wall to wall pulls generally due to the spikes in damage. Another good one is the wall to wall in One of the ice dungeons (that has a name that escapes me but the first boss is the snowball yeti in ARR) And just because a tank IS competent enough does not mean they are required to do so. I don't think the issue discussed here is someone generally tapping a mob as the party goes to engage; its when the tank sets up shop to tank 1 pack and the DPS runs off to pull the other into the pull in progress that tends to cause issues. I also disagree with your final statement and likely I find is often the mindset that other roles can do no wrong in a group setting; treating the tank as a subservient is likely going to only exacerbate the issue as would claiming their motives are entirely childish. Tanks do make the same arguement that DPS classes are spoiled and unable to consider anyone but themselves and when you have those two juxtaposed views its easy to miss on having an actual discussion.

[Mortex]

Tanks shouldn't be throwing like in ops example. But people who try and speed up the trash by pulling for the tank; why not just ask the tank to pull more? 9/10 times I've seen someone ask, the tank will pull more, and the one time they don't, they typically have a good reason (laggy, theyre inexperienced, they're under equipped, etc). Why not just communicate with your team instead of potentially causing a wipe or getting yourself/someone else killed?

90% of the time they do pull more but the ego from these people don’t take it kindly that the healer/dps did hit the mob 2 seconds before them so now they gonna teach these non main character individuals a lesson and deny the people the chance of getting through the dungeon in a fast pace. And it’s normally not even hard these days getting aggro back from a healer or dps in less then 2 seconds.

[Lazariah]

Yeah there's this whole "tank war" bullshit going on with a loud minority of players. Basically: there have been DPS who are pulling mobs ahead of the tank on purpose without talking to the tank or asking first and it's rubbing tank the wrong way so they just let the puller die.

This is...several problems mixed into one. First, it means people who accidentally pull are caught in an unfair crossfire. Secondly, it's been polarizing people. Honestly, the DPS who pull on purpose without asking the tank are just as toxic as the tanks who let people die because they have aggro imo. But both sides have been insistent that they're in the moral right somehow despite just being jerks to each other.

I mean it's not hard. Just talk to each other and respect each other's wishes. If you find it unfair for the tank to set the pace of the dungeon in a game where that is literally how it is built, roll a tank. If you get all butthurt over people pulling mobs, maybe don't assume malice right away. Accidents happen. Talk to each other.

When you pull mobs without communicating on purpose and when you let someone die because they pulled, you're both being rude to each other and forcing each other to play exactly the way you want instead of using teamwork.