You pull you tank question.

[Ruruura]

To your first point: who is the one taking active measures to ensure a party member dies?

I'll give you a clue, it's not the dps or healer.

To your second point: lol

If the dps or the healer decide to to be petty, they cannot complain when someone else decides to be petty in return.
There is literally no reason that is not petty for a dps or a healer to pull over a tank.

[OdinelStarrei]

If the dps or the healer decide to to be petty, they cannot complain when someone else decides to be petty in return.
There is literally no reason that is not petty for a dps or a healer to pull over a tank.

I always, always prefer competent DPS, if they are faster than me, to pull. I encourage it openly. I compliment them if they pull it off. This is already an insane rarity because there is only a puff of smoke where I was standing at the gate in every duty.

If a DPS or SGE is somehow even faster than me, probably through movement displacement (NIN or DRG jumps primarily), I'm actually totally into it, because if they are doing that, they are probably popping Arms Length+Bloodbath for the slow. I can't Arm's Length both wall to wall pulls, but with a DPS, we can. This is free mitigation for me, and a single AoE hit with 20X enmity rips them right back as we keep on trucking. SGE can get those cool Toxicon breaks as well.

A DPS who pulls for me will always make my day.

[Ruruura]

I always, always prefer competent DPS, if they are faster than me, to pull. I encourage it openly. I compliment them if they pull it off. This is already an insane rarity because there is only a puff of smoke where I was standing at the gate in every duty.

If a DPS or SGE is somehow even faster than me, probably through movement displacement (NIN or DRG jumps primarily), I'm actually totally into it, because if they are doing that, they are probably popping Arms Length+Bloodbath for the slow. I can't Arm's Length both wall to wall pulls, but with a DPS, we can. This is free mitigation for me, and a single AoE hit with 20X enmity rips them right back as we keep on trucking. SGE can get those cool Toxicon breaks as well.

A DPS who pulls for me will always make my day.

And that is perfectly valid, if it works for you, but not everyone agrees with you, but even beyond that is the fact that by my experience and that of many others, the average "dps puller" is more of the kind of either staying with the mobs and hoping the rest of the party follows suit, or the headless chickens that just randomly run past the party and one has to chase to aggro, and now, a third new breed, which is the "tank vibe checker", the ones who have participated in the last few months of discussion and just do it to see how the tank reacts to it, of which i have already found a few.

Of course the experience probably varies by person but yeah.

[OdinelStarrei]

And that is perfectly valid, if it works for you, but not everyone agrees with you, but even beyond that is the fact that by my experience and that of many others, the average "dps puller" is more of the kind of either staying with the mobs and hoping the rest of the party follows suit, or the headless chickens that just randomly run past the party and one has to chase to aggro, and now, a third new breed, which is the "tank vibe checker", the ones who have participated in the last few months of discussion and just do it to see how the tank reacts to it, of which i have already found a few.

Of course the experience probably varies by person but yeah.

You said there was "literally no reason that is not petty." And I gave you a perfectly reasonable example of where it's preferred. I even said that it's a rarity, but it does exist. If the player who is pulling for me is actually incompetent, I as tank have an overwhelming amount of control, because DPS lack tank stance enmity multipliers, and ranged aggro tools. If a DPS has pulled ahead of me, and just stays at the first pack (somehow I'm not right next to them?) Ok, that's fine. AoE once, we move on. I'll even give them a short term mitigation as I'm running up if I know the CD will reset by the time we stop at the wall. Headless Chicken that, while we were running to the next pack decided to single target high potency GCD attack one single enemy that causes them to rip aggro (see: PCT), that's fine. I press tab-target how many times are needed and press ranged aggro tool once. If they are slightly out of range of that, use provoke's increased range instead on the soonest GCD weave.

I've never been vibe checked by a DPS, so I don't know exactly how I would react if someone did it. Like I said, I'm very rarely in a position where DPS have any sort of control in the pull that I didn't allow them to have for an intended reason. The enmity changes are too substantial for non-tanks to have any true autonomy if the tank has experience, or even more importantly, confidence in the role.

I'm also not going to sit here and say that there are not situations where I do not want the DPS to pull to be a universal contrarian for typical tank/dps relationships. 8 mans where I rely on the first hit to be on tanks for pre-pull shenanigans can be ruined if the RPR accidentally Soulsows twice. Or the DNC fatfingers Standard prep. But under no circumstance would I, like, throw a fit about it. It's whatever. It's not that serious. Whatever gets the objective done faster/easier/with no comms, that's what I'll do, and support the party by any means. It ain't worth the effort to foster animosity of any kind, and there's no need for malice. I start a fight, help me end it. You start a fight, I'll help you end it. That's the game.

[Iustitia-sama]

If the dps or the healer decide to to be petty, they cannot complain when someone else decides to be petty in return.
There is literally no reason that is not petty for a dps or a healer to pull over a tank.

Imagine thinking a player playing the game game is being petty that you decide to purposely kill that player and thinking you're justified in doing that, crazy right lmao. Just admit you're a malicious person who wants to exert their ego on the "petty" dps/healer who's just trying to play the game.

[Ruruura]

Imagine thinking a player playing the game game is being petty that you decide to purposely kill that player and thinking you're justified in doing that, crazy right lmao. Just admit you're a malicious person who wants to exert their ego on the "petty" dps/healer who's just trying to play the game.

I never said i engage in YPYT myself but nice projection lmao.
All i am saying is that there are as many egotistic and vibechecking dps and healers as there are tanks who think they are the next queen of England.

And i am tired of this board pretending it is not the case.

[Iustitia-sama]

I never said i engage in YPYT myself but nice projection lmao.
All i am saying is that there are as many egotistic and vibechecking dps and healers as there are tanks who think they are the next queen of England.

And i am tired of this board pretending it is not the case.

Projection lmao, maybe you shouldn't write in such a way that makes it sound like you endorse this kind of behaviour as it's not a stretch to think if someone endorses it they must engage in it too, but keep malding though.

[Ruruura]

Projection lmao, maybe you shouldn't write in such a way that makes it sound like you endorse this kind of behaviour as it's not a stretch to think if someone endorses it they must engage in it too, but keep malding though.

I would accept the malding comment if it did not come from a community that makes like 50 "tanks bad, m i rite LOL" threads per week across the forum and reddit.
Heck, just a couple or three days ago we had like four tank related threads in the first page of this very board.

You people are obsessed with all these mythical worst case scenario mega egotyrant tanks that we have all met like twice a year but somehow warrant permanent and unending debate.