You pull you tank question.

[BokoToloko]

1.

1) The only reasons for not using mitigations in early contents are either because you've been doing single pulls and, thus, facing no stress at all. Which reinforces the point of forcing bigger pulls because, as you literally put it, they don't learn to use mitigations until they are put under the pressure to do so.

2) You do realize both scenarios happened because of the player decision, right? It's the DRK who decided to level with PvP and only learn to PvE later completely oblivious on how the job works. Same for the GNB and, doubly so for the MSQ skipper. You decide to go in blind and clueless, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences because what happens for your ignorance is your own responsibility. And the GNB literally have a scenario to literally give you the ropes on how the job works.

3) Endgame starts at level 50. Because that was the first endgame there was and that's where you can start unlocking raids and EX trials. That's half the current level. And, even before 50, you get plenty of dungeons where to learn to play your class and, barring Stone Vigil or Aurum Vale, they're all EASY. And plenty of chances to fail, receive advice and improve come with those dungeons.

4) No, this is an issue you and a few other spoiled players have. Because what I say it's not just what I want to do but also the consensus among players on how things are done. And this something I do only because I've been learning the very beginning of my FFXIV, when I played with only 10 fps during ARR (when ping was horrible) while facing visual and auditive impairment (and still facing it). So you can spare jme the "Ooooh you don't know everyone's circumstances" because, big news, I do have my own. And people who do like me also do. So... yeah. Being a newcomer never excuses you from learning the knowhow. NEVER. W2W are the norm. Not the preference. And the sooner anyone learns that, the better for everyone including the newcomer. No matter how many "periods" you try to put on it.

Ah, thanks for proving my point. The fact you consider mitigation rotating only involving a set of amount of buttons proves my point. You're just a trust NPC. You don't play with the order of your mitigation, the strength of the adds damage and survival time, or the timing between them as a consideration in gameplay. You just braindead 1-2-3 and deal with the consequences afterward.

The only content where you 100% have to pay attention at all instances to the order of the mitigations in order not to wipe a party is Savage during early prog and Ultimate. And the magnitude of the damages and consequences are night and day compared to a leveling dungeons because, there, an unmitigated tankbuster WILL kill you and set a whole run back to the very start. They are completely different universes. So, other than timing the CD (which boils down to pretty much using them when you've got the whole pull together) none of the things you mention matters at all in dungeons. So spare us the fluff because any reasonable tank knows leveling dungeons are the furthest from being hard to tank, other that Stone Vigil or Aurum Vales, and both cases have nothing to do with tank or healer individual performances.

[VoidsentStatus]

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1) I like how I talk about MSQ and you bring up early multiplayer content, and then ramble about something I didn't even say.

2) It is player decision, but guess what? It was Square Enix who even made that choice to allow it. It's a dev approved player decision. GNB and DRK could just as easily start at level 1 and not get experience at all from PvP. And there is no solo scenario/instance in the game that forces you to use the entire kit of your job. "Give you the ropes on how the job works" is not a thing. You literally basic 1-2-3 through everything. You have free HoT's given to you. And you have a very easy button in most situations. Even the Hall of Novice is /optional/ content. The game never forces you to learn anything, which is why veteran players had an issue with the tutorial system in this game because nowhere does it teach foundational strategies and ideologies past a Pre-K level.

3) "Endgame starts at level 50" You mean the content that has 1/3rd of the mechanics of the game introduced by that point? Are we talking about the Ultimate that has a challenge for, what was it, 50-100+ deaths while still clearing? We're talking about the content that dropped in difficulty so hard they had to invent Unreal to bring back even relevance of not being a braindead cakewalk? We're talking about Moogles and other instances they nerfed for people to be able to finish it easily, completely changing mechanics inside of instances, most jobs don't even have their core finished out kit wise, and you still consider that end game?

4) If they were the norm and not the preference, we wouldn't have had an entire expansion the devs removed wall to wall pulls because they hated the community pushing that direction.

[BokoToloko]

h.

1) In case you've magically forgotten, MSQ forces you to go through 9 dungeons and 4 proto-trials for 2.0 story, alone. Yes, you are to tackle multiplayer content. And you're the one hiding behind that excuse so... yeah, my point stands quite strongly actually.
2) Now that trying to appeal to "what everyone does" doesn't work for you, you're hiding behind "what the dev" allows. Allow me to put you out of your misery. Devs are not the comunity. What the comunity agrees and what the devs think are NOT the same. And if you asked many of us, you would find that few players look kindly on the skip potions not having any measure to ensure the skippers do so completely oblivious or that pèople just refuses to make use of what tools there are, either in-game or from outside sources. And GNB scenario does show you the ropes because they DO tell you what your mitigations are, to activate your stance and to use your combo, including cardridge combo during it's course. They do teach you the ropes. And this is why me and many other people bother speaking up when someone messes up so, even if they didn't go through all those resources, they do get the chance to learn.

3) The amount of things you've pulled out of your ass is an hilarious demonstration on your ignorance of what's there at level 50. Because half of those things are not from there to begin with and the other half you don't really know. The fact you're talking about the Moogle nerf shows you only synched for Hard and not for Extreme. And I would need a hundred of hands to count the amount of times newbies unassumedly queue in on an EX trial from ARR and, unsurprisingly, they wipe the moment they ignore the filled in mentors advice because, for being a braindead cakewalk, sprouts sure are usually clueless to do simple stuff such as "not moving while floor slippery during Shiva Ex" resulting in countless of sprouts touching the wall of "turning into an ice pop". And all roles get the minimum tools needed for each to perform their jobs: role actions, tanks get also the 30% mits and their invulns, healers get at least one GCD, even if WHM's is Bene, and DPS get their base rotation and, save for a notable exception, some more. More than enough to get a grasp on how game plays. And if synched EX runs tell anything is that you can't just plow though every content through brute force, since every single one has a mechanic that ensures wipes if people isn't trying to pay attention to the mechanics. Every. Single. One. And this one is an easy tell for someone who gets them every now and then on mentor roulettes and has to run the sprouts through the mechanics. And, while I won't elaborate much, I could build a strong case on how learning many of the EXes mechanic is useful for future reference, it has no bearing on the current argument.

4) Devs also think healer design is ok and regaled us with this xpac's MSQ. Does the community agree? Not really. So.. yeah, I could wipe my arse with the dev intentions, honestly. The fact the community still walls to wall as far as they can even after the devs tried to impose walls is proof enough to tell you how little dev's opinion on how the game should be played matter.

[VoidsentStatus]

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1) And slowly, all of those are being phased into Non-MMO situations. Where you don't have to deal with multiplayer content. Which means, once more, you are not forced to learn anything near of what the community expects of you.

2) Let me put you out of your misery. The devs are the one's that have the community on a leash. They are the one's that determine job changes, content design, the one's that even allow you to attempt to wall to wall pulls. And going against dev decisions, is how you end up breaking ToS and getting banned from the game. Going against the playerbase is not going to get your account wiped out. Half of you have an ego because you haven't played a game before where the devs actually abused their authority and trashed every playstyle and mechanic that you cared about, repeatedly, for a decade. If you don't plan to unsub in mass, your opinion is irrelevant which is why we're in a Healer Strike right now as is.

3) *skips first half of assumptions* "all roles get the minimum tools needed to perform their job". Exactly. The Minimum. Minimum =/ Core Kit.
DRK = missing Blackest Night, core to their mitigation rotation
PLD = missing Clemency which was a massive game-changer in completing content with job utility, as well as every ability that's a group mitigation or damage transfer
GNB = no combos at 50
WAR = no raw intuition, core to their mitigation rotation

People have complained for years that jobs do not play anywhere near the same throughout the various levels, even at 50. And Yoshi-P has even mentioned that they've thought about how to address this.

As for GNB:
"what your mitigations are" -> reading a description is different than forcing you to rotate cooldowns as a success condition
"to activate your stance" -> you mean the button you hit 1 time at the start of the instance and never use again? such an amazing tutorial feature
"use your combo" -> Did it teach you how to allign it with your damage buff? Did it teach you how to sync it with your other long damage ogcd and gcd combos such as SB, DZ, RD? Did it teach you how to move the boss while doing combos? Did it teach you how to use mitigation in the middle of the combos? Did it teach you that you could break your combo with other actions and still keep the proc actives? Did it teach you 3 target vs 2 target damage rotation numbers? When you unlocked Bloodfest, did it teach you your entire burst window with reset'ing the cartridge count or teach you a sped up opener?

No. They taught you how to push a button that lit up one time, and another button that lights up after you push the same button 3 times and none of the complications and intricacies that come with it being played in a normal manner.

4) "as far as they can" That's the copium. Try as you might, you're not important :3

[BokoToloko]

I'm going to start with the real game changer,

3) *skips first half of assumptions* "all roles get the minimum tools needed to perform their job". Exactly. The Minimum. Minimum =/ Core Kit.
PLD = missing Clemency which was a massive game-changer in

This alone says everything. The fact you consider Clemency as core PLD spell and a game changer just highlighted how little you actually know how to play tanks. Moving on...

1)You still have to run dungeons and trials with others, barring trusts, sweetheart. That one thing is hardly going to change.
2) Unless the devs are enforcing mind controlling devices they do NOT "have the community on a leash". Because, at every turn and every moment, everyone can call them idiots and unsub. And having the usual attention seeker in the forum whining doesn't change the fact that what the community and the dev think about the game are two entirely different things. And if you knew a bit of FFXIV, healer complainsts have existed ever since HW
3)Already addressed the important part. But let me correct you: the complaints are aimed at the fact that playing at level 50 is boring as shit because you're not playing the full class, hence why it feels incomplete. You are still fine to clear whatever content you get at level 50, even Savage T9. And I strongly suggest you give the scenario another spin.
4) *cough cough* Mt. Gulg gigapulls. *cough, cough* Someone who considers Clemency a game changer isn't in any position to lecture others on tank discussions. Not to mention you're not on the majority defending YPYT, so.... yeah.

I like how you conveniently left out what you'd do if the sprout didn't take the advice.

"Can you clear SoS with an AFK person? You can't. That means tanking Warrior of Light isn't so easy right? Checkmate" This is the level of your argument. If your whole argument requires someone to be incompetent, you don't have an argument at all. No one. NO ONE is expected to perform beyond what their alloted responsibilities. If I do wall to wall in Stone Vigil, cycle the cooldowns accordingly and die because the healer is spaming Cure 1, it's not my problem anymore. It's the healers'. And I do NOT have to drag or slow down for someone who REFUSES to step up their game and do an actual decent job. It doesn't work that way. And, so far, 0 sessions with a GM over it, because I do not insult or threaten. I tell them what they should improve, and if they refuse to learn the easy way, they'll have to learn the hard way. Hence the dismiss vote if they refuse to play right. No more coddling deadweight.

But it's understandable you think expecting people to strive for a modicum of competence is toxic. You would get a hard time doing dungeon roulettes as a Clemency Paladin (yes, it's really bad).

[VoidsentStatus]

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And the magnitude of the damages and consequences are night and day

Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

[noelregnard]

Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

Damn I guess all of my friends who play tanks and I are better than this self-proclaimed rank 1 tank!

[BokoToloko]

Your rotation when you're a WAR with raw intuition that can full health you on adds, is night and day compared to other tanks.
Your rotation as a DRK where you have an entire physical damage mitigation missing inside of your kit, is night and day compared to other tanks.
When certain jobs you queue with only have single target and don't have aoe in their kit yet, it is night and day compared to other runs.
When you don't have a WHM Cure 2 healing you for 60% of your health in 1 cast anymore, it is night and day compared to other runs.
I'm not fixing to play this game and list out every night and day in dungeon runs that happens.

Like I said. If a Rank 1 tank, who has cleared every ultimate says he can't braindead rotate mitigation in pugs without dying, I'm not having this talk with randoms on the forums if you're not putting money up.

It's not night and day because it's still easy and very forgiving compared to what. And if it feels so daunting for you I'll break it for ya: it's pretty much your own problem. It's funny you accuse me of this kind of fallacy yet you also recur to uit.

Go run Stone Vigil as a GNB with a sprout WHM using Cure 1 and do the first wall to wall pull with Reprisal first, and then Arm's Length and come back to me.

Easy peasy. Just make sure the WHM uses cure 2. Either the sprout you get does it or, should the sprout be too cool to take advice, the next healer you get. I've had more than my fair share of deadweight. Enabling their behaviour is NEVER worth it.

[VoidsentStatus]

Easy peasy. Just make sure the WHM uses cure 2. Either the sprout you get does it or, should the sprout be too cool to take advice, the next healer you get. I've had more than my fair share of deadweight. Enabling their behaviour is NEVER worth it.

I like how you conveniently left out what you'd do if the sprout didn't take the advice. Either you'd have to not do the wall to wall pull (and prove my point) or leave instance immediately <5min in (which is considered toxic behavior).