You pull you tank question.

[Galvuu]

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

I didn't even read all of the other posts, but we're clearly talking about XIV.
In XIV, your aoe rotation is 3 buttons, maybe 4/5 with the one ogcd damage button that you press once a minute. You can set up your hotbar and practice this on a dummy for 30 seconds.
Then you just also assign your mitigations and press them in a random order, one after the other.
Even if you only hit 1-1-1, you generate so much aggro with modern tanks you'll probably be fine. If you miss one of the mits or misclick it, you're fine.
There are games where it's not so simple, but for XIV, in dungeons, it really is. You don't need to be "flawless", it's not that challenging...

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

Unless you've job skipped and thus played stupid games to win stupid prizes, the new sprout tank is in Satasha after 15 levels of MSQ, which literally gets easier if you wall pull because of the clams. By the end of ARR and arguably by Brayflox you should have the baseline competency to pull two packs (the average "wall pull" is somewhere around 1.5 packs lol).

But okay, let's say you haven't developed that competency. DPS/Healer pulls ahead, you do your job and pull aggro off them. If you wipe have a chat about how to improve and achieve baseline competency. Having a tantrum and saying "YPYT" is literally a ToS violation and stunts your own growth as a tank.

[Leonus]

As a person who has, and still does, enjoy tanking… stop being a pansy in e
Easy content if someone else pulls. In harder content, sure and mainly because it throws people’s timers off.

Other than that you have no real excuse other than your attempt to power trip. If you can’t handle being a tank, then stop playing the class. The role is easy. It just has a large impact if you suck.

[Battel]

the damage dealers role is to do damage. to do damage to speed up the dungeon. the trial.
if your not taking agro, your making more work for everyone else. its like saying i dont want to do my part, because someone slapped it before i could slap it.
if your not pulling as much as you can, your being disrespectful. again, their role is damage, as fast as possible.

if your one pulling, your presense as a tank is not even required. if your wiping, yeah you have good reason but on a clean pull...?

i say this as a tank main, stop treating dps players like shit. their here to have fun too.

[VoidsentStatus]

.

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Your mitigation rotating is going to change depending on your job, your gear available, your abilities unlocked inside of said content, the capability of the healer, and the dps in instance. If you pull every instance at every level on every job the exact same like a bot, you're trash. There's no way in hell, you'd be a DRK in low to medium content and try to have a similar rotation and pull path as a WAR. I'm not going to be a low level PLD with a sprout healer and act like I'm a WAR at 90-100 with a Ultimate Title WHM/AST. There are a lot of variance and adjustments that come up and if you shrug off that variance telling everyone in your party to adjust and be good so you can be a bot and run your rotation and pull the exact same, you're the problem. There are going to be differences in grouping, which mitigation rotating takes priority depending on the difficulty of adds in the next set, whether or not you decide to use CC on various adds in said pact, how many seconds you spread between your mitigations instead of running them back to back with 0 downtime, when and how you use invul during pulls (PLD use is going to be different than GNB and different than DRK, bad GNB use often can conflict with WHM if not done properly). Are these going to be factors in EVERY single run, no. But these situations crop up. Rotating your mitigation brain off is going to inevitably get you killed, especially if you're in low dps runs where the adds aren't dead but you've ran through all your cooldowns. If you have a WHM swearing religiously on Cure 1 and not using Cure 2, you're not going to tank the same. If you have an astro/whm that isn't using HoT's, you're not going to tank the same. If you have a sprout SCH with no gauge (start of the dungeon), you're not going to tank the same. How you tank/heal in Satasha is not going to be the same as how you tank/heal in Stone Vigil, and the wall pull average stress is going to vary each expansion and even inside of the same expansion as some mobs hit noticeably harder than others even if the same add count is used. Thinking you can run into any content, do some brain dead minimum, and you're officially at "well I've done my job" is what actually stunts your growth as a tank. A good tank is able to carry inside of content and not just be a Trust NPC performing a skill check on the party. Being able to adjust to any party, any pull, any content is where the tank learning exists. You do not look up tank guides and they only have a 2min video saying "yes, push these 4 buttons in order and hit these 2 aoe buttons, and you're done".

I am never going to be an advocate for someone creating a problem, and then wanting to have a nice chat afterward, after they've killed everyone, about how to fix the problem they created. Backwards logic is the definition of compelling gameplay that /is/ a violation of ToS.

[BokoToloko]

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

The fact you need to go outside FFXIV to make your point says everything. You can't argue about how things are done here. And even then, your example is, simply put, hogwash:

- No one begins doing multiplayer content in a MMO unless it's a purely PvP. This game is the furthest from being an exception. Players get plenty of time to learn and plenty of resources.
- In MMO, we get time to understand the basics before running the easier parts of multiplayer instances- If, by that time, I haven't captured the essentials of tanking BEFORE jumping in... yes. It's on me. Being a newcomer doesn't excuse me from trying to learn and improve.
- If, by endgame, I don't have an understanding of the tanking mechanics or how the instances work, yes, it IS on me. I have all the leveling process to understand how my class works, how the game mechanics works and, if I'm still confused, to read a guide in order to understand what I should or shouldn't do. Each player has the final responsibility on what they learn or don't. If you refuse to learn, you're burdening other players for no reason.
- If we die, we die. Most cases (including FFXIV) we just run back to where we die, and try again. If I fucked up, I apologize and tell I'm new and learning. Do I expect them to slow down for me? No. I take what advice I get and try to do better.. The other players' responsibility is to understand not to flame me for mistakes out of ignorance but to offer advice so as to improve the run.

And if the run in FFXIV is going badly and I identify the problem for it (for example, a WHM trying to proc free cure), I'm not going to slow down just to accomodate someone who's not playing right. I tell them what's wrong and ask what they have to do in order to improve. And that's not creating a problem. That's solving one. And if whoever is being a deadweight dismisses the advice and/or gives attitude, that's an easy dismiss vote. If someone is unwilling to improve and pull their own weight, no one else should allow themselves to pull if for them.

[VoidsentStatus]

The fact you need to go outside FFXIV to make your point says everything. You can't argue about how things are done here. And even then, your example is, simply put, hogwash:
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1) There is no stress in open world MSQ to even have to care about using mitigation. You can go through the entirety of MSQ in the game including Dawntrail, without using mitigation in open world and inside of solo duties. Mitigation and the output and cooldowns of other jobs are not things you learn before going into multiplayer content. Even for Trusts, the NPC's have infinite mana/abilities and aren't realistic in their healing output at all compared to what you'd see with other players in a live situation.

2) No, you don't. Because that's where FF14 is even worse than other games, since it has jobs that start at later levels. If someone unlocks DRK and decides to level with pvp, they can be 40-50+, but may decide to run roulettes with their friends and be inside of dungeon content pve for their first time despite their level. Same goes for GNB, same goes for people who get advised to skip MSQ and need to buy a job skip with it to even do the story. Most aren't going to buy a MSQ skip on their main and then manually dungeon spam all the way up unless they're told to.

3) That's /if/ we're talking end game. Most YPYT happens in lower content where the entire purpose is people learning. Not that they should've already learned. Not to mention if they had friends carrying them with massive heals and damage output, they're not going to be used to pug situations. Same way I saw someone on twitter getting triggered because raid buffs were misalligned in pug situations. How you allign buffs and burst/handle openings inside of static/savage/ultimate is not the same as pugs. Experience in one does not translate to experience in the other.

4) This is another issue that people have. WHAT **YOU** DO DOES NOT MATTER. THE ENTIRETY OF THE TANKING POPULATION IS NOT YOU. HOW YOU HANDLE SITUATIONS IS NOT IMPORTANT. People do not have the same input types, they do not have the same pve experience, they do not have the same internet connection, they do not have the same goals for content, they do not have the same mental health as others, they do not have the same priorities as others. You cannot pidgeon-hole an entire role of a game into "you need to run content this 1 way for this 1 reason with this 1 mindstate". Period.

[4clubbedace]

No offense but if they were smart they wouldn't be pulling mobs to begin with. The tanks who think this doesn't matter must be the laziest players of all time. If you are doing your job right people should be having to work to actually be in front of you to pull before you do. Do your jobs as the tank and pull the mobs, it just makes everything easier and smoother when the tank pulls. Only in FF14 would a legit group negative behavior be called "ok" because of "tank ego".

itake plenty of offense, if a ddps zooms ahead with en avant, backflip, whatever man.

im not goign to through a fit in the middle of the dungeon if the dps is really impatient

[noelregnard]

Your mitigation rotating is going to change depending on your job, your gear available, your abilities unlocked inside of said content, the capability of the healer, and the dps in instance. If you pull every instance at every level on every job the exact same like a bot, you're trash. There's no way in hell, you'd be a DRK in low to medium content and try to have a similar rotation and pull path as a WAR. I'm not going to be a low level PLD with a sprout healer and act like I'm a WAR at 90-100 with a Ultimate Title WHM/AST. There are a lot of variance and adjustments that come up and if you shrug off that variance telling everyone in your party to adjust and be good so you can be a bot and run your rotation and pull the exact same, you're the problem. There are going to be differences in grouping, which mitigation rotating takes priority depending on the difficulty of adds in the next set, whether or not you decide to use CC on various adds in said pact, how many seconds you spread between your mitigations instead of running them back to back with 0 downtime, when and how you use invul during pulls (PLD use is going to be different than GNB and different than DRK, blah blah blah nonsense too long character limit

I've played almost every dungeon as every tank and every healer. They all play almost exactly the same even for low level dungeons. Just cycle your mit and do AoEs.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

[VoidsentStatus]

I've played almost every dungeon as every tank and every healer. They all play almost exactly the same even for low level dungeons. Just cycle your mit and do AoEs.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh yeah? How confident in that statement are you? Care to wager 25mil that if you spend 9 hours running leveling roullette while rainbowing tank jobs, that you can run the exact same mitigation rotation regardless of the dungeon and finish with 0 avoidable deaths at the end of the day?