You pull you tank question.

[BigCheez]

The start of the quote chain was asking Pictos to chill with their rotation because they are doing exactly what I said.

And I'm explaining to you why DPS shouldn't "chill with their rotation".

If they're pulling aggro, throw your ranged attack/voke behind you while you're running between packs. Staying at the top of the enmity table for a tank isn't difficult in the current version of the game and you absolutely don't need people to sandbag their damage so that you can do so.

[BelegErkhten]

Ive been seeing significantly more of this since dt started-
Tank says nothing for 90% then gets mad on final pull because sm1 else pulled. Refuses to tank the mobs and even the boss.
Same story every time -

Where exactly do the GMs stand on this issue. Where exactly do the tos stand on this issue? And where do you the players stand on this issue.


Is it against tos?
If not should it be?
Are there exceptions where its okay to refuse to tank?

If a Mob is chasing you, just stop attacking it and run over to the tank, and they will naturally take aggro from it. This is not rocket science.
While its not hard to pick up trash in the initial engagement if you just mash ranged attacks, it IS VERY hard to do that if a Pictomancer decides to use the funny hammer attack to open or a Summoner decided to immediately summon Bahamut.
That said, none of this is going to be a problem after the patch tonight when Tank AoEs will generate more enmity.

[Vahlnir]

If a Mob is chasing you, just stop attacking it and run over to the tank, and they will naturally take aggro from it. This is not rocket science.
While its not hard to pick up trash in the initial engagement if you just mash ranged attacks, it IS VERY hard to do that if a Pictomancer decides to use the funny hammer attack to open or a Summoner decided to immediately summon Bahamut.
That said, none of this is going to be a problem after the patch tonight when Tank AoEs will generate more enmity.

Yep. If I pull something off a tank (happens with SMN a lot, actually lol Though I do tend to save my actual summons for when the party comes to a stop) I try to stand with the tank until they get its attention back. That has always been the best way to handle it, in my opinion. If someone pulls something off of me, I'll provoke or use my ranged attack to get it off of them, but if they decide to turn tail and head back down the corridor, I'm not chasing them too far, especially since I've probably got over a dozen enemies on my plate already and the rest of the party is there. It's a case of "help me help you". It's kinda like when someone runs away from a group with their stack marker. Not much you can do but watch them go.

[TBerry]

Yep. If I pull something off a tank (happens with SMN a lot, actually lol Though I do tend to save my actual summons for when the party comes to a stop) I try to stand with the tank until they get its attention back. That has always been the best way to handle it, in my opinion. If someone pulls something off of me, I'll provoke or use my ranged attack to get it off of them, but if they decide to turn tail and head back down the corridor, I'm not chasing them too far, especially since I've probably got over a dozen enemies on my plate already and the rest of the party is there. It's a case of "help me help you". It's kinda like when someone runs away from a group with their stack marker. Not much you can do but watch them go.

Yeah no, if you accidentally gain emnity, you should definitely run to the tank to get it off of you.

[Lonely_Lily]

As it has been said, it's just about and will always be about communication (IG) and point of view (here).

For a bit of context, I play all the jobs but healers are my favorites followed by tanks.

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

At the end it's all about respect. I respect my mates when I play, I try to go at their pace, whatever my job is. I wait for CS, I try to let some time for a newcomer to discover a dungeon when it's his first time, etc.
If you, as an other player, that can't wait 1 more minute in a whole dungeon cannot stand that, for me, you are a pain.
I usually do W2W, and if I can't because I'm not confident in my healers, in my dps, or at the dungeon specificities, I just warn everyone in the chat.
And if, despite all that, you start a fight during a CS, yep, I won't come until the CS is over so bear with it. If you pull and run like a chicken, yep, bear with it or come to me. And if the dungeon is a nightmare to deal with, I just quit because there is plenty of yellow quest that are waiting for me that I will enjoyway more..
It's not about ego or whatever, it's about what I think is respect (point of view). I can change my way of acting or playing if you communicate somehow with me (coomunication again) but otherwise, I'm totally fin to be the jerk of the one I call a jerk.

If Something is wrong, I try communication, if that doesn't work, I leave. It's for every job that I play, not just tank nor healers. There is no good answers, it's just my answer to that kind of situation.

[TBerry]

As it has been said, it's just about and will always be about communication (IG) and point of view (here).

For a bit of context, I play all the jobs but healers are my favorites followed by tanks.

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

At the end it's all about respect. I respect my mates when I play, I try to go at their pace, whatever my job is. I wait for CS, I try to let some time for a newcomer to discover a dungeon when it's his first time, etc.
If you, as an other player, that can't wait 1 more minute in a whole dungeon cannot stand that, for me, you are a pain.
I usually do W2W, and if I can't because I'm not confident in my healers, in my dps, or at the dungeon specificities, I just warn everyone in the chat.
And if, despite all that, you start a fight during a CS, yep, I won't come until the CS is over so bear with it. If you pull and run like a chicken, yep, bear with it or come to me. And if the dungeon is a nightmare to deal with, I just quit because there is plenty of yellow quest that are waiting for me that I will enjoyway more..
It's not about ego or whatever, it's about what I think is respect (point of view). I can change my way of acting or playing if you communicate somehow with me (coomunication again) but otherwise, I'm totally fin to be the jerk of the one I call a jerk.

If Something is wrong, I try communication, if that doesn't work, I leave. It's for every job that I play, not just tank nor healers. There is no good answers, it's just my answer to that kind of situation.

That's how it works at least on Chaos.

[Andryl]

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

Thank you ! I 100% agree with you. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon from DT (the expansion is out for like a month now it's still really recent), DPS sprint accros the first area pulling every single living soul around and running back screaming like a child to the tank and healer to save him. I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

I don't care about WtoW and i don't care about slow dungeon according to healer or dps preferences. But please, respect other people, and communicate, you wanna rush that content like your life depends on it ? Ask for it and see if the whole team is cool, the only result will be 4 players super motivated to clear as fast as possible.

I have the feeling that the YPYT problem is coming from a lack of resistance in the smallest inconviniences in the game, the tank is slower than me ? He's bad, he needs to adjust to me. He is not taking care of the mobs i pulled ? It's not my fault i'm the victim, report tank.

I love tanking since 1.0 and ARR and thank god those namazu size brain fart are a really small part of the community and the black list is doing a great job avoiding them.

We all need, as a community, to be careful not to fall into the Wow community stereotype 'git gud or get reported'. We have an awesome game populated with awesome people. Let's try to communicate and respect each other, it will only result in a more happy and relaxed playstyle.

[Bhearil]

Thank you ! I 100% agree with you. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon from DT (the expansion is out for like a month now it's still really recent), DPS sprint accros the first area pulling every single living soul around and running back screaming like a child to the tank and healer to save him. I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

I don't care about WtoW and i don't care about slow dungeon according to healer or dps preferences. But please, respect other people, and communicate, you wanna rush that content like your life depends on it ? Ask for it and see if the whole team is cool, the only result will be 4 players super motivated to clear as fast as possible.

I have the feeling that the YPYT problem is coming from a lack of resistance in the smallest inconviniences in the game, the tank is slower than me ? He's bad, he needs to adjust to me. He is not taking care of the mobs i pulled ? It's not my fault i'm the victim, report tank.

I love tanking since 1.0 and ARR and thank god those namazu size brain fart are a really small part of the community and the black list is doing a great job avoiding them.

We all need, as a community, to be careful not to fall into the Wow community stereotype 'git gud or get reported'. We have an awesome game populated with awesome people. Let's try to communicate and respect each other, it will only result in a more happy and relaxed playstyle.

I wonder how many of those DPS who call the tanks crybabies, childish and similar would say if tanks and healers started kicking dps whenever they underperform below optimal standards...

And before someone starts saying that would be parsing and therefore ilegal a person can just take notes of how long the mobs take to die and kick the one the lowest on the aggro meter and the "differences in gameplay" reason still exists.

You dont want to go that slippery hole and theres already some signs since a few years ago of "my rules are your rules but your rules arent mine" kind of behaviour

[Raven2014]

I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

Well, not saying I gonna do the same to you as the people you had, but I can explain why it's happening to you.

- You shouldn't try to grab agro on the first pack if it causes you to stop running.

- Pop print pre-pull, run into the first pack, do one AOE and keep running to the next pack. You can try to range attack the stray as you run if you feel like it, but even that is not really needed.

- It doesn't matter if you didn't get all the mobs or if the DPS pulling off you. This is not WoW, a stray mobs or two ain't gonna one hit non-tank.

- You can stop once you at the last pack, at this point the other players will pile on you and you can peel the mobs off them.


This is pretty much just standard DF run, and because of that most people just gonna do it a lot of time out of muscle memory, myself included. I usually also pop sprint and start running with the tank and I don't stop because I also assume the tank won't stop. But once a bluemoon (maybe 1/10 times) the tank stop because they thought they need to gather the mob first, I usually catch myself in time before I pulled the next pack and just go back to where the tank is. So again, I'm not gonna be one of those people who pulled than scream at you, but ngl, it's always a bit bemusing seeing a tank stop and do 4-5 GCD to gather the mob. It's just ... not necessary.


So just treat what I said as an advise. The people who want to speed run ain't gonna be mad at the tank because of a few temporary stray mob when the group is running, as long as the tank peel off them once the group hit the wall. It's just kinda like an unwritten agreement.

[Angelivia]

Whenever it comes to this topic, I am surprised how many are pointing fingers at the tank.

Your are so quick to quote the rules that the "you pull, you tank" mindset counts as "lethargic behavior" while, at the same time, you are so ready to ignore the fact that repeated and intentional non-tank-pulling is also reportable (if preceded communication failed, of course).

It is always the same "arguments".
1) uSe SpRiNt - Sprint is the ONLY tool a tank has to move faster. DPS - even healers now - often have more than one charges of dashing forward ADDITIONAL to Sprint, so it is impossible to outrun them.

Moreover, DPS pullers are wont to run ahead BEFORE the mob is killed down. With that damage now missing, it takes longer to finish it off. And even if the tank follows suit, the moment the mob gets dissolved from a bundle to a moving line, AOE's won't reach every enemy anymore, casts are uncomfortable to finish (if doable at all) and while it might FEEL faster, because you're on the move, in the end it isn't. So even apart from basic courtesy, it is no real gain whatsoever. Quite the contrary.

Plus, the "refined" way of using Sprint as a tank is to activate it JUST BEFORE reaching the following mob so it lasts not only 20 seconds but also long enough to make it to the next mob. Having to activate it earlier, just because one DPS did so, only results in Sprint wearing off ere the pull is completed, the tank taking avoidable damage and the healer spending resources that could have been saved up.

Why making this a race in the first place? It is unnecessarily stressful.

2) iT's So EaSy To TaKe BaCk AgGrO - This is beside the point. This isn't about how easy it is to regain enmity, it's about decency. Organisation. Every role has its part to play, so let them. A DPS hitting one enemy, they automatically get targeted by ALL other enemies. And yes, while it USUALLY takes only one strike for the tank to be main target again, due to the slow reaction time of mobs, they spread all over the room and the tank's AOE's don't have infinite radius. So it might take more than one hit.

Apart from that, the chaotic positioning only results in - again - everyone doing less damage and the whole encounter taking more time.

Furthermore, that every tank's ability to gain and to maintain enmity got easier over the time only shows that people never learned to behave the proper way, so the only solution in the end was to change the system, because players couldn't. If anything, that's a sad testament. Not a valid counter-argument.

3) There's a reason why tanks are setting the pace - maybe the healer is new/slower or the damage is lower and I have to use up all my cooldowns. The next pull isn't going to be wall to wall, then or I'm risking a wipe.

(1/2) Continues on second post due to length restrictions.