Here's why I will not support this healer strike.

[Sadebreth]

We don’t want to do more damage we want to have a more complex way to achieve the same damage…….like the tanks. They do 10% more than the healers and 50% less than the DPS with a rotation near as complex as the DPS, why can’t the healers have something like this?

And I mean every single piece of casual content has been no healer’ed and even TOP has been done healer less, the healing potential of the non healers is insane, but let’s ignore that for a second and say “yes tanks and DPS have high healing but that’s good”, THEN WHY ARE HEALERS STILL DESIGNED AS IF THEY ARE CONSTANTLY HEALING?

I won't because I was surprised they gave DPS and Tank a heal at all but it is very old mechanic from back when the game was hard. Unfortunately they lost too many players because of it and toned dungeons down. Did they do it too much? That is for them to decide. They were losing quite a bit players back then though and had to do something. The heals they put in, at the time, were for the solo player that didn't want to group or to help 2 player groups that didn't have a healer. Now though.... I don't really know but I would assume it is the same.

[Supersnow845]

I won't because I was surprised they gave DPS and Tank a heal at all but it is very old mechanic from back when the game was hard. Unfortunately they lost too many players because of it and toned dungeons down. Did they do it too much? That is for them to decide. They were losing quite a bit players back then though and had to do something. The heals they put in, at the time, were for the solo player that didn't want to group or to help 2 player groups that didn't have a healer. Now though.... I don't really know but I would assume it is the same.

The game has been growing every patch since ARR we have data to back this up, we also have data to show that healers used to be more common than tanks but that flipped in ShB

Regardless you still haven’t answered anything about my point

I’ve told you three times “GIVE. US. MORE. TO. DO. WHEN. WE. DONT. HAVE. TO. HEAL” and every time you’ve deflected about some random point I didn’t even make about excessive out of healer healing

I’m specifically saying if we don’t change the out of healer healing then you need to give healers something to do, I physically cannot make that point any clearer

[Sadebreth]

The game has been growing every patch since ARR we have data to back this up, we also have data to show that healers used to be more common than tanks but that flipped in ShB

Regardless you still haven’t answered anything about my point

I’ve told you three times “GIVE. US. MORE. TO. DO. WHEN. WE. DONT. HAVE. TO. HEAL” and every time you’ve deflected about some random point I didn’t even make about excessive out of healer healing

I’m specifically saying if we don’t change the out of healer healing then you need to give healers something to do, I physically cannot make that point any clearer

You keep saying give us more to do but more to do means more healing or more dps. More healing means more damage from enemies and more dps would start to make you more than just a healer. In every MMORPG I have ever played the healer is always just a healer and can't do much dps unless they actually have a dps spec for them which took away their ability to heal much. The heal spec took away their ability to dps much. It is a give and take. You really can't have both. Sage is the only one that I know of that relies on it's dps to be able to heal but even that dps isn't much. So either way you are going to make the game either harder or easier depending on which way they decide to go with it if they decide to do anything at all. Can the pictomancer sustain healing an entire group of 8 people for a long time? If it can then like I said, it may need to be tweaked but if they are then they aren't doing much DPS. It is a new class. Give them time to tweak it. They can't queue as healers so they would be gimping the group out of a dps if they tried and some bosses would reach their rage timer before they got it down.

[Supersnow845]

You keep saying give us more to do but more to do means more healing or more dps. More healing means more damage from enemies and more dps would start to make you more than just a healer. In every MMORPG I have ever played the healer is always just a healer and can't do much dps unless they actually have a dps spec for them which took away their ability to heal much. The heal spec took away their ability to dps much. It is a give and take. You really can't have both. Sage is the only one that I know of that relies on it's dps to be able to heal but even that dps isn't much. So either way you are going to make the game either harder or easier depending on which way they decide to go with it if they decide to do anything at all. Can the pictomancer sustain healing an entire group of 8 people for a long time? If it can then like I said, it may need to be tweaked. It is a new class.

We literally had this design in SB with healer DPS kits (where they were more popular than the tanks) the healers were still primarily healers but they actually had something to do that’s not broil, that doesn’t mean they need to do “more” damage, just do the damage they alr set do in a more interesting way

Even WOW has this, WOW healers barely spend 10% of their time doing DPS and they still have kits that are more complex than our healers, same as our tanks, they are also support, in traditional MMO’s tanks didn’t do damage, they had defensives and hate generates but neither really did damage, why are tanks “allowed” to have full DPS rotations

The idea that healers only heal is predicted upon an encounter design that actually forces the healer to heal. In modern 14 the healer isn’t healing almost at all. So you can either make the damage more interesting or up the damage, upping damage raises the skill floor so the better option is to make the damage more interesting

As for my PCT comment I never said PCT can replace a healer I’m saying star prism having a heal adds nothing to PCT but gives the healers less to heal, it’s not useful in solo content as you can only use star prism once per 2 minutes, it’s just a heal there for the sake of it l, that’s a heal that doesn’t need to exist

[Sadebreth]

We literally had this design in SB with healer DPS kits (where they were more popular than the tanks) the healers were still primarily healers but they actually had something to do that’s not broil, that doesn’t mean they need to do “more” damage, just do the damage they alr set do in a more interesting way

Even WOW has this, WOW healers barely spend 10% of their time doing DPS and they still have kits that are more complex than our healers, same as our tanks, they are also support, in traditional MMO’s tanks didn’t do damage, they had defensives and hate generates but neither really did damage, why are tanks “allowed” to have full DPS rotations

The idea that healers only heal is predicted upon an encounter design that actually forces the healer to heal. In modern 14 the healer isn’t healing almost at all. So you can either make the damage more interesting or up the damage, upping damage raises the skill floor so the better option is to make the damage more interesting

As for my PCT comment I never said PCT can replace a healer I’m saying star prism having a heal adds nothing to PCT but gives the healers less to heal, it’s not useful in solo content as you can only use star prism once per 2 minutes, it’s just a heal there for the sake of it l, that’s a heal that doesn’t need to exist

Yep and the dancer with it's group heal and group shield aren't needed? The summoners rez and heal aren't needed? I don't know how many times the summoners rez saved a group when both healers died. The were able to rez one and that healer got the other healer up. Red mages rez and heal aren't needed but they have saved groups on a hard boss. Get rid of 2nd wind? Lancer has an ability that heals them while they attack. Just about every class in the game has a form or heal. Get rid of them all? As I said before. It is for soloability of the class so people don't have to group except in dungeons.

[TsubameMikage]

You keep saying give us more to do but more to do means more healing or more dps. More healing means more damage from enemies and more dps would start to make you more than just a healer. In every MMORPG I have ever played the healer is always just a healer and can't do much dps unless they actually have a dps spec for them which took away their ability to heal much.

So what is the point of a healer in this game? We can't get a better DPS kit because then we're not healing. But we can't design the game to make healing actually needed because apparently that's too hard and will make the game unplayable. So, other than being a forced carry on the other 3 people since we bring nothing that can't be better done by bringing a 3rd DPS.. why do we exist? (And don't claim it's for hard content - once it's on farm, the first thing you drop is the co-healer)

[Sadebreth]

So what is the point of a healer in this game? We can't get a better DPS kit because then we're not healing. But we can't design the game to make healing actually needed because apparently that's too hard and will make the game unplayable. So, other than being a forced carry on the other 3 people since we bring nothing that can't be better done by bringing a 3rd DPS.. why do we exist? (And don't claim it's for hard content - once it's on farm, the first thing you drop is the co-healer)

A healer will ALWAYS be needed. That is the point. You can't do dungeons without a healer. The tanks that can heal themselves through a boss, which I believe is only warrior and paladin, needs to be looked at but dungeons are where healers are really needed. Without healers the game might as well not have any dungeons and just let everyone zerg the things. The only dungeons that everyone farms that I know of are pre-made groups where you can cheese it by going in over the level of the dungeon. Me and my daughter got the birds and wolves doing extremes by ourselves that way. If you go into a dungeon at level I have never seen a healer not be needed.

[TsubameMikage]

A healer will ALWAYS be needed. That is the point. You can't do dungeons without a healer. The tanks that can heal themselves through a boss, which I believe is only warrior and paladin, needs to be looked at

Which is it, are healers needed, or can at least 50% of the tanks do the job without one? Both can't be true. If you want to argue that healers *should* be needed, then we agree. However, needed to do what? Because as it stands, even without a warrior or paladin - the amount of actual healing a healer needs to do in any half-decent group is basically 0. Being useful only when people are terrible is not a great way to justify a role's existence.

... dungeons are where healers are really needed. Without healers the game might as well not have any dungeons and just let everyone zerg the things.

We're already at "zerg all the things" mode for several expansions now. Wall to wall pulls are the norm, not the exception and outside of a DRK, already don't really provide much issues in terms difficulty. We've reached a point where the requirement for a healer in DF is arbitrary and forced by the queue, rather than any actual gameplay benefit from having one.

The only dungeons that everyone farms that I know of are pre-made groups where you can cheese it by going in over the level of the dungeon.

Only for previous expansions - I personally have farmed current (then EW) dungeons for glams, among other reasons such as rare pets. You are always stuck at that dungeon's level upon entry.

[Sadebreth]

Which is it, are healers needed, or can at least 50% of the tanks do the job without one? Both can't be true. If you want to argue that healers *should* be needed, then we agree. However, needed to do what? Because as it stands, even without a warrior or paladin - the amount of actual healing a healer needs to do in any half-decent group is basically 0. Being useful only when people are terrible is not a great way to justify a role's existence.



We're already at "zerg all the things" mode for several expansions now. Wall to wall pulls are the norm, not the exception and outside of a DRK, already don't really provide much issues in terms difficulty. We've reached a point where the requirement for a healer in DF is arbitrary and forced by the queue, rather than any actual gameplay benefit from having one.


Only for previous expansions - I personally have farmed current (then EW) dungeons for glams, among other reasons such as rare pets. You are always stuck at that dungeon's level upon entry.

For this expansion you can be 10 levels above the level 90 dungeons if you need something out of them like a pet. Of course you can't do it at higher levels. A level 100 can't solo a level 100 extreme dungeon which is where most of the good stuff is.

I never said the tanks could solo ALL dungeons. I have only seen them do it at levels where they first get their heal which is very low level for a paladin. I don't know about warrior. The higher the level the more the heal lags behind in it's ability because the boss can take them down before they can get their next heal off at higher levels. Like I said. It needs to be looked at. Doesn't warrant a full on strike.

[ty_taurus]

A healer will ALWAYS be needed. That is the point. You can't do dungeons without a healer. The tanks that can heal themselves through a boss, which I believe is only warrior and paladin, needs to be looked at but dungeons are where healers are really needed. Without healers the game might as well not have any dungeons and just let everyone zerg the things. The only dungeons that everyone farms that I know of are pre-made groups where you can cheese it by going in over the level of the dungeon. Me and my daughter got the birds and wolves doing extremes by ourselves that way. If you go into a dungeon at level I have never seen a healer not be needed.

There's a channel in the discord dedicated to clips of healerless clears of content. All tanks can do healerless runs at any level it seems, and it really isn't difficult. I think most people have never actually tried and just think it would be super difficult when in reality it's anything but.