Please fix/tokenize Darklight drops

[Asiaine]

1. It's not fun doing it 40+ runs and not seeing a specific drop.

Fortunately you do not need to do 40+ runs (in a row?). You can do a few, then go do something else. If you mean you did a total of 40+ runs (not at once) and got nothing, then I am very sorry for you ; ;. Even no totems? At least you got some xp! (200k or so?) and some gil! (200k more or so?). So there are some side-rewards as it is (I got Archer from 42 -> 47 on this, which makes me happy.... and the worst archer/bard in the world ^.^;

2. I wasn't talking about within the linkshell, I was talking about 1 linkshell will get a ton of items while another linkshell would get nothing.

Oh yes, this is sad. I know how it is. I used to belong to LS and look fondly at the 'other' LS that kept getting all the big HNMs and pretty drops. Oh well, life is not fair. C'est la view. Que sera sera. And if this continuously happens on EVERYTHING (i.e. the 'other' LSs get stuff on every single dungeon/primal why you guys do not), then there may be something special they are doing to increase their chance ^.^.

But yes, no one guaranteed fairness, such is the luck of randomization. Hopefully if you are nice, Karma will reward you in time ^.^

3. If the content becomes exceptionally grindy there should be a token system that ensures you to get an item after grinding a certain amount of time, much like totems except each person should get maybe 1 per run then after obtaining 40 or more tokens you can opt to obtain a piece of DL that's not a body. And then you get tokens separate for doing speed runs that can be traded in for a body after a certain number are obtained.

Fortunately the content is not exceptionally grindy. Obviously you can choose to grind it if you wish (you can grind anything!). But that is your option, not required... for example:

If you had to kill 100,000 mobs in order to progress the main story line (independent of levelling your character) that would be a grind.
If you had to kill Ifrit 1000 times in order to get the quest finished, that would be a grind.

The fact that you want to collect every little last item possible in this world, is a choice, not a forced upon grind. By the way, there is no real need to do this (at least for the vast majority of people).

4. There's only 2 primals. And the thing about that is most people actually doing the Speed Run farming for CC/AV now have already grinded out each of those content to no end. Which makes them not fun to do.

I was forward thinking to the nice pretty primal comming up soon. I am sure she will be more than happy to blow you a kiss ^.^;;;;. Nothing is fun to do if you do it too often. I love eating cookiees.. but after a 100 a day I stop enjoying it. You might like riding a chocobo, but if you do it non stop for 20 hours you might get bored (and sore).

5. They are creating a grindy world, I know people who have done 100+ ifrits runs and still don't have all of the weapons. 40+ moogles runs an only have 1 drop. And 50+ speed runs in AV/CC and still no body drops. It's not that people are oblivious to other content, it's that people have already grinded that content until it makes them want to quit the game.

They are creating a lovely world, where you have freedom of choice. You can choose to grind or not to grind. Let's look at your statement:
'all the weapons': There is no requirement to have all the weapons. If they want to go after all of them, that is their choice.
They want the Dark Light equipment. That is nice... but it is not meant to be really obtainable. If they watn to force themselves to repeat a million times to get something that is meant to be super-ultra-rare, that is their choice (freedom of choice). But there is no requirement to grind.

You are correct that there may not be additional things for them to do in this world. However, that does not mean that what little content there is should be made easier.

6. I'm not sure if you're implying here that I don't know how to plan, pace myself, or work together but I can ensure you that is definitely not the case for my linkshell and I.

That last comment was a general statement meant for peopel at large who suffer from some or all of those issues. An emphasis that this world really does benefit those with assets. It was not targetted at you specifically.

My overall point is that people would not mind grindy content if each individual were ensured something after a certain amount of runs. For example a better primal token system, but incorporated into the dungeons. The drop rates can remain the same, but at least give us a token system that ensures an individual a drop after a certain number of runs.

This then starts to feel like a 'pay' system... I will get paid 1 token each time I kill Ifrit, and then I can buy a weapon for 10 tokens.... it just feels so.. un-adventerous and more like work. It will also remove the lovely feeling:
YES! YES! I finally got that wonderful beautiful staff I was so wanting! YAAAAAYY!
and replace it with:
Okey, one more run and I can go buy the staff.

I can appreciate both sides of the argument, and feel that there is room for both options in this world.

An idea that I have, while still sticking to the lore is that you obtain a number of tokens per chest obtained in each run. After a massive amount of tokens are obtained then one can trade these tokens to a corpse of a member of the Darklight Crusade that spawns after defeating the final boss. Once you trade these tokens you have the option to choose from a specific set of items. These tokens can only apply to non-body pieces to keep the body pieces as exceptionally rare. Also since this token system rewards a group based on number of chests, those who are more skilled than others and can do 5 chest speed runs will obtain their rewards faster than those less skilled players.

One of the concerns I have with this approach is that it is not very FF-ish. Since this is a FF-themed world, some people have expectations of FF-ish behaviours. Also a lot of what you touch on is implemented via means of a reward for doing quests (without the option of reward, but still a reward).

Additionally, the rest (choice of reward) is done by means of Grand Company Quests (go kill NMs, or clear out dungeons, or do leves) and you can get seals which you then turn in for whatever item you want (which are also good).

So yes, these are good ideas. But I think there is room for both systems (one with a clear action->pay->reward scheme, and one with a action->random chance of reward scheme).

If you think that this current world is what SE wants us to be experiencing for the success of the game you are 100% wrong. All of this content we are obtaining is just to hold us over until 2.0 comes out.

I'm not sure I would say 100% wrong. There must be at least one thing in this world that SE thinks is good and wants us to enjoy? If every mechanic, every quest, every system, every feature now is 100% different from what it will be in 2.0, then I guess I would be wrong. But I've seen nothing that explicitly states that for everything.

EDIT: Also it doesn't seem like you've even completed speed run yet. Please come back when you really know what the drop rates are like after doing at least 50 speed runs.

Now I'm sad. I thought we were having a good meaningful discussion without having to resort to this ; ;.
I do feel I should be allowed to have an opinion without having to do 50 speed runs. Especially since doing speed runs is not high on my list, nor is killing my fun high on the list.

I suppose a discussion restricted to only the group of people who share the exact same behaviour would be interesting, but not much would come from it.

Regardless, the end result is:
No one is forced to grind, they are given the choice to do what they please.
No one is forced to get 7/7 and DL gear. They are given the choice to get this, or not.
If one chooses to do something so often it kills their own fun, the problem is not with the world, but their own choice.

[Raikki]

This then starts to feel like a 'pay' system... I will get paid 1 token each time I kill Ifrit, and then I can buy a weapon for 10 tokens.... it just feels so.. un-adventerous and more like work. It will also remove the lovely feeling:
YES! YES! I finally got that wonderful beautiful staff I was so wanting! YAAAAAYY!
and replace it with:
Okey, one more run and I can go buy the staff.

I really don't think you understand the situation in the slightest. A points system would remove the "lovely feeling":
"Well there goes 10 hours of my life for nothing... again."
and replace it with:
"I've almost got enough points for ______, I can't wait!"

Of course, you can spin your made up thoughts about content any way you want, but I think this version more accurately reflects reality.

[carraway]

I really don't think you understand the situation in the slightest. A points system would remove the "lovely feeling":
"Well there goes 10 hours of my life for nothing... again."
and replace it with:
"I've almost got enough points for ______, I can't wait!"

Of course, you can spin your made up thoughts about content any way you want, but I think this version more accurately reflects reality.

Yeah, basically. I would definitely appreciate a gradated reward system that weighs the top-end of accomplishment more heavily.

I did some fuzzy napkin math the other day. Considering how few pieces of DL we have versus how many 5-chest clears we've done, the drop rate is especially abysmal -- in the neighborhood now of 2.5%, counting total DL vs total chests. Working hard towards that end goal of getting X, Y, or Z piece of Darklight feels like digging through the lightning sand in the fire swamp.

[Asiaine]

I really don't think you understand the situation in the slightest. A points system would remove the "lovely feeling":
"Well there goes 10 hours of my life for nothing... again."
and replace it with:
"I've almost got enough points for ______, I can't wait!"

Of course, you can spin your made up thoughts about content any way you want, but I think this version more accurately reflects reality.

This may simply be a matter of perspective, so we may very well have two different views (as we are different people).

Some people may say: I spend 10 hours, I want something.. got nothing... bad
Some people may say: I spend 10 hours, I had fun with friends.. got nothing... no biggy

So its not so much of 'made up thoughts' or 'reflects reality' but the fact that different people have a different outlook on life ^.^.

The only thing I am ever trying to suggest here (and I guess I am failing to make it clear) is:
If you are of the mindset that you MUST obtain items and you will keep repeating it till you do, you will forever be wraught with despair and frustration. If you are of the mindset that obtaining items is a minor thing, and simply 'being' with friends is all you want, then you will have happyness and enjoyment.

(At least in the way this world is designed for now).

[Enfarious]

Yeah, basically. I would definitely appreciate a gradated reward system that weighs the top-end of accomplishment more heavily.

I did some fuzzy napkin math the other day. Considering how few pieces of DL we have versus how many 5-chest clears we've done, the drop rate is especially abysmal -- in the neighborhood now of 0.025%, counting total DL vs total chests. Working hard towards that end goal of getting X, Y, or Z piece of Darklight feels like digging through the lightning sand in the fire swamp.

Just the reference at the end, yes, that movie was great ...

Points certainly do guarantee a reward, a mixed system can work also. I'm going to make 2 FFXI references here.

First: Dyna the endless death grind for currency that it was. There were little drops from everything, but it wasn't about the first form of a drop, it was all about the upgrade, well weapons-wise armor eh. You wanted the endless grind and to say "Look at me. I got my xxx." good on, but anyone can get the base form (hopefully something that is worth using just not the best thing going).

Second: Assault, not just Nyzul, but all of it, with it's point system, but the real rewards, the reason to go back were the drops on every 10th floor, and weapons dropped from NMs that you almost never actually had to kill, again, MOST of the rewards are random drops from NMs and Sub/Bosses.

--------
Do the points make it feel like "work" so I can buy things?
Maybe a little, but hey that gil stuff I get for doing things, a payment for services rendered, a form of currency given for completing a job(quest), these duties that I enter these dungeons for are a service being rendered so when I complete them...
Wait I've been doing "work" since I finished creating my first char, so I could buy shiny new toys.
Knocking points systems cause it turns it into work is easily the worst argument I've ever seen.

Which is not to say anyone is knocking points systems.

[Raikki]

This may simply be a matter of perspective, so we may very well have two different views (as we are different people).

Some people may say: I spend 10 hours, I want something.. got nothing... bad
Some people may say: I spend 10 hours, I had fun with friends.. got nothing... no biggy

So its not so much of 'made up thoughts' or 'reflects reality' but the fact that different people have a different outlook on life ^.^.

The only thing I am ever trying to suggest here (and I guess I am failing to make it clear) is:
If you are of the mindset that you MUST obtain items and you will keep repeating it till you do, you will forever be wraught with despair and frustration. If you are of the mindset that obtaining items is a minor thing, and simply 'being' with friends is all you want, then you will have happyness and enjoyment.

(At least in the way this world is designed for now).

Your sunshine and rainbows approach might work just fine for the amount of effort you put into the game. I'm not trying to tell you that you can't feel that way. But the serious raiding playerbase is completely different and I don't think you understand what we're talking about. We thrive on progress. Progress means either the growing strength of our character or at least the ability to make measurable progress toward a goal. We already leveled everything to 50. We already got all our primal weapons. We already HQ'd our accessories and double/triple-melded our gear. We already beat the 5-chest speedrun "challenge". Darklight is the only way for us to progress, and progression is what we're all about. Telling me progression is "optional" is really telling me "well you could just quit the game instead".

I understand SE's desire to prevent Darklight from flooding the game, and that's fine but there are much better ways to accomplish that. The current system of spending ten or more hours a night and making no progress whatsoever is not acceptable.

[Sigmakan]

Yeah, basically. I would definitely appreciate a gradated reward system that weighs the top-end of accomplishment more heavily.

I did some fuzzy napkin math the other day. Considering how few pieces of DL we have versus how many 5-chest clears we've done, the drop rate is especially abysmal -- in the neighborhood now of 0.025%, counting total DL vs total chests. Working hard towards that end goal of getting X, Y, or Z piece of Darklight feels like digging through the lightning sand in the fire swamp.

0.025%? Shit, you guys have terrible luck, or thats a typo. Really hoping thats a typo. 0.025% means you've gotten 1 drop out of 4000 chests (or 800 5-chest runs).

[carraway]

0.025%? Shit, you guys have terrible luck, or thats a typo. Really hoping thats a typo. 0.025% means you've gotten 1 drop out of 4000 chests (or 800 5-chest runs).

Oh shit, haha. I did say it was fuzzy napkin math and I really meant it. Fixed to 2.5%.

[Asiaine]

We already leveled everything to 50. We already got all our primal weapons. We already HQ'd our accessories and double/triple-melded our gear. We already beat the 5-chest speedrun "challenge". Darklight is the only way for us to progress, and progression is what we're all about.

If SE popped 10 more primal and 20 more dungeons and 50 more quests, then would you have the same concern about the Darklight drop rate? Would you still focus only on that instead of the other content?

I do not believe the problem is in the low drop rate, but rather, the lack of anything else for you to enjoy doing. In other words:
The only way to progress in this world right now is through a mechanic that requires great tedium and repetitiveness.

Rather than address the 'tedium and repetitviness' I would rather address the 'only way to progress'.

But I would love to hear your feedback on this. Would more content and variety of content and dynamic content that you have not yet come close to completing, that in itself gives rewards and advancement and fullfillment, make you rethink your need to change the drop rate (or tokenize) Darklight equipment?


And yes, I like Sunshine and Rainbows ^.^

[carraway]

One of FFXI's great strengths after having so many expansions was that the breadth of horizontal content at 75 cap was amazing. However, that didn't make it any less frustrating to run a particular Salvage a billion times for that one last 35 piece to complete something. Having more content wouldn't make the Darklight droprate more tolerable, it would just divide our attentions to the point where it would take even longer to finish our Darklight sets.

My linkshell is already planning on the eventuality of running AV/CC alongside Garuda post-1.22, and probably alongside the Legatus/Imperial Stronghold, and we are not looking forward to that 1000th AV/CC run even if we have other "dynamic content" to tackle.