The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Aravell]

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

It's like you ignored every other bit of similarity and jumped straight to "This job also presses buttons for a minigame for a big hit".

No, DNC is obviously not similar to MNK and NIN, which is why I never argued that they were.

But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

[Mikey_R]

Your point on gauges look at say WAR and DRK. They generate gauge near exactly the same (20 gauge on the third hit, WAR gets 10 on the second but only because storms path which is the same easy to maintain damage up as dark side), they both spend it on the same thing and they both have a button that once per minute lets you spam said thing multiple times. The gauge is essentially exactly the same. RPR’s enshroud gauge is almost exactly the same to MCH’s hypercharge gauge

As for healers you can argue their healing kit has nuance but it also doesn’t, I’m not even going to mention SGE/SCH again but you miss with the design of healers that “a skill can be different but feel the same because it achieves the same thing and you press it at the same time”. 9 times out of 10 SCH will press seraph when SGE presses panhiama, are the skills technically different…….yes, do they really feel different when you press them at the same time……….no.

As for NIN and DNC even though you didn’t reply to my comment specifically I did mention those two feel extremely similar to me

Jobs can be painted with broad strokes a lot of the time because we use them so much they can blur, they do have niche differences but you also have to consider how often those niches actually come into play (ie the healers are not the same because of their heals design issue)

DRK has Blood Weapon which will generate gauge during Delirium and you have no way to dump it, except Living Shadow, but even that is going in DT. You will generate 30 Blood and there is nothing you can do about it. Warrior, you have to consider not only the damage buff, but also your Infuriate cooldown and whether you have the spare headroom to not overcap Infuriate's cooldown.

Healers, similar, yes, design issue, not necessarily an identity issue.

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But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

Dancer also has a very similar damage profile. Burst at 60 is tied behind Flourish, also has personal and party burst at 120. No button at 90 however it does try and spam as much gauge stuff into the burst. Party buffs grant them a benefit. Oh, and they don't have a personal damage buff. With the broad strokes people have been using, they are basically the same job.

Healers, yes, issues.

As for the MNK/Ninja niche, there are only so many niches to go around. You are bound to have overlap, but that doesn't mean they play the same. If the 2 minute meta is the issue, that is an overarching job design issue and isn't something you can judge all jobs on to say that there is no identity.