The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Sjol]

Define Job identity. This one I am curious about. I'm pretty sure people use this term to mean different things, so what does it mean to you and anyone else who wants to answer.

This wasn't directed at me, but I would love to answer it.

To me, job Identity is multiple things hence the confusion.

* Visual Identity - Does this job look like other jobs? Could you confuse its dress, style, or animations for another job?
* Thematic Identify - When describing this job to another person, (e.g., "Treasure Hunter", "Mage obsessed with destruction"), could it be confused for another job?
* Input Identity - How similar is the sequence of keys I have to press compared to another job? This is somewhat under the player's control, but mostly up to the job designers. Mudra input vs. Hypercharge vs. BRD procs all have different feel in how and when I press things.
* Mechanical Identity - If I were to describe the meters without visuals or names how easily confused could they be to another meter. E.g., meter that starts at 0 and goes to 100 in increases of 5, 10 or 15 based on user actions.

In all the above the sign of distinctness is how specific I can be and there still be confusion. This is our brain's attempt at grouping like things and removing distinctiveness in order to store the information more efficiently.

I think part of the issue is that there are jobs or parts of jobs that have gotten too close for some people in one or more of those areas. That's when they start to blend in their mind and feels same-y. The annoyance for the designers is that different jobs need to be distinct feeling in all those categories, not just one or two. The more jobs there are and the tighter the constraints around balance (more fights to balance around), the harder it becomes to maintain distinctness.

[Valence]

The PvP kits themselves are directly inspired by the PvE kits. So, logically, if you were to take the PvP kits and take inspiration from them to make a PvE kit, logically speaking, you would end up with something that looks similar to the current PvE kits.

The claim then, that the PvP kits have things that the PvE kits could take inspiration from should then be tested. This is why, you start at the PvP kit, take the things out that only apply to PvP, replace with some PvE centred things and make a new kit. Now, if what you come up with is something similar to the PvE kit, then the PvP kit really isn't that inspiring is it?

So aagin, the question is, what is so inspiring about the PvP kits that the PvE kits could learn from?

But what is "being inspired by" exactly? How do you define this inspiration between pvp and pve kits? We both can play at this little game.

That's pure sophistry you've been doing since the beginning and you know it. You know what people mean, your strategy is just to derail everything into meaningless minutiae that completely misses the bigger picture.

As for the last paragraph, this is the problem with people at the moment. They have blurred the lines so much that everything looks the same. However, the miss the nuance associated with each individual thing that makes them unique. This is what I am trying to make people see. These things are not the same and they all have different considerations applied to each one. There is only so much you can do to make things feel distinct when everyone is looking at things from such a broad perspective. get in there, take in the nuance.

We could tell you that two inner release type bursts feel the same, you'd still come up and tell us "akshtually, the GCD used in both don't have the same potency so they're technically very different!"

You're being constantly disingenuous and missing the point on purpose.

[rawker]

To give credit when it's due, EW MCH is more summoner than the actual SMNer job.

[Rekh]

To give credit when it's due, EW MCH is more summoner than the actual SMNer job.

How so? Ten characters.

[rawker]

How so? Ten characters.

Before you are able to summon the turret or queen, you have to do something, unlike EW SMN, you Oprah the primals.

What's even funnier is that summoning does not have any cost, whatsoever. You are calling primals as if you are tagging in a mahvel game.

[Rekh]

Before you are able to summon the turret or queen, you have to do something, unlike EW SMN, you Oprah the primals.

What's even funnier is that summoning does not have any cost, whatsoever. You are calling primals as if you are tagging in a mahvel game.

Well said well said. Just wanted to see if you were going to argue that having the queen auto attack for 1 minute was better tham temporary 1 time use summons.

But the angle you took with it is what I've said in the past as well; smn should've been building towards a grand summoning; and depending on the situatin you're in you summon garuda for dots, titan for aoe, and ifrit for slow but big damage. In this situation you would actually have to make decisions on the spot.

Just remove ifrit, titan, and garuda from the rotation and make them actual job gauge decision-based mechanics. When we asked to be able to summon primals like in past FFs we didn't ask to see them summoned 50 times in an alliance raid run.

On this point, use carbuncle colors to designate which primal-based spell you will cast on your enemy(s), so you would have to summon sapphire carbuncle to cast sapphire-catastrophe, which would be a water attack.

Now, I will not say I dislike current summoner, but it could've been so much better mechanically.

[MagiusNecros]

Only things we need from PvP is the personal Limit Break and the condensed combo as one button. Which we are getting the condensed combo action as one button in Dawntrail.

Personal Limit Breaks leading into the Party Limit Break would evolve the gameplay in a dynamic way.

[flowerfairy]

Yea I appreciate Shadowbringers for the free trial update that hooked me to the game but maybe I made a bad choice choosing to play healers because I’ve been disappointed ever since I learned how much was taken away… Then becoming disappointed once again in both Endwalker and Dawntrail job action trailers. Everything just feels uninspired.

What PVP does well is job identity. Of course PVP abilities wont translate into PVE, but they should be taking note how they’re able to bring a different feeling in every job

[rawker]

...

A better idea is for Carbuncle to be a filler summon.. to pay respect to its ACN roots.

Then, using Ifrit as example, you call out the egi version of the primal, order it around like Carbuncle all while you amass aether. When you have the needed amount of aether, Enkindle lights up, ifrit egi dissipates, then ifrit shows up, does his signature move, and leaves. Then summoning egis go on cooldown and are forced to summon carbuncle.(filler summon). Do filler stuff with it rhen when summoning egis are available again, call whatever egi you like. Rinse and repeat.

Now how will Phoenix and Bahamut fit into this? They will not have egi forms but instead, you will have fit the requirements of its summoning while doing your normal rotations. To spice it up, the rituals change from time ro time... think of combining BRD songs and DNC steps. Doing the right ritutals will fill the gauge faster. Once full, Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix lights up and you are given the choice what to summon. Once any of them are out, Carbuncle or the other egs will withdraw and you are now ordering Bahamut and Phoenix, when their timer expires or ordered to, they will cast their signature spell then leave, like MCH

[Rekh]

A better idea is for Carbuncle to be a filler summon.. to pay respect to its ACN roots.

Then, using Ifrit as example, you call out the egi version of the primal, order it around like Carbuncle all while you amass aether. When you have the needed amount of aether, Enkindle lights up, ifrit egi dissipates, then ifrit shows up, does his signature move, and leaves. Then summoning egis go on cooldown and are forced to summon carbuncle.(filler summon). Do filler stuff with it rhen when summoning egis are available again, call whatever egi you like. Rinse and repeat.

Now how will Phoenix and Bahamut fit into this? They will not have egi forms but instead, you will have fit the requirements of its summoning while doing your normal rotations. To spice it up, the rituals change from time ro time... think of combining BRD songs and DNC steps. Doing the right ritutals will fill the gauge faster. Once full, Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix lights up and you are given the choice what to summon. Once any of them are out, Carbuncle or the other egs will withdraw and you are now ordering Bahamut and Phoenix, when their timer expires or ordered to, they will cast their signature spell then leave, like MCH

Great ideas overall, really like the core principles of carbuncle and the rituals for the demis. Something like this is 100 times better than ridiculous summoning of primals every minute. In a 40 minute alliance raid you literally summoned a primal around 30 time. I don't know what it is with square enix, but nuance and and not going to the extremes is a foreign concept to them from what I've seen. Our ciriticism of smn might just push them to removing all summons but bahamut if we're not careful. Their reasoning "you wanted less summoning per 2 minutes."