Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[Aco505]

The way drift is being used in this thread is incorrect. The only thing that drifts even when playing correctly is GSK, anything else is just getting used to the job until it no longer drifts.

Drift is also not inherent to DRG. All jobs suffer from it to some extent.

[HikariKurosawa]

Again, I feel like your comment about "A job being drift prone is simply bad design" is super disingenous lol.

What about it is disingenuous? You can wax poetic about how it is engaging to avoid drift by holding onto powerful abilities instead of using them, but to me it's just annoying gameplay. Of course the job worked, but it didn't work well unless you were okay with not using the satisfying abilities as often as you could use them. Being able to adjust the rotation by not using abilities at certain times and saying that it doesn't drift is like uhh.... No job has drift then, they're all just puzzles to be solved. Just don't use your abilities unless it lines up with the buff window. Hold onto the satisfying cooldowns until the right timing and you'll not get drift. To me this is inherently just bad design. It's not disingenuous of me to say this, I just like using the satisfying abilities more than I enjoy solving "puzzles" in my rotations to keep things lined up. If I wanted to solve a puzzle, I would engage in the most difficult content of the game and solve the encounters.

Rotations should just make sense and flow naturally. This doesn't mean they can't be complex, it just means they should make sense with their natural timing. If a job doesn't have natural timing, the rotation is literally by definition contrived. I don't believe that is a good thing personally, but a lot of players who view themselves as elite tend to celebrate contrived rotations.

The way drift is being used in this thread is incorrect. The only thing that drifts even when playing correctly is GSK, anything else is just getting used to the job until it no longer drifts.

Drift is also not inherent to DRG. All jobs suffer from it to some extent.

All jobs are imperfect, I agree. It's actually really hard to naturally remove drift from the game but that's the ideal. I don't think your post makes any sense though, "The way drift is being used in this thread is incorrect-the only thing that drifts 'when playing correctly' is GSK" If you have to play in a contrived way, it's not correct. It's compensation for poor job design and counter-intuitive. The fact that it is being called a puzzle just means it is bad objectively. Have you heard of stockholm syndrome?

[Reldhir]

What about it is disingenuous? You can wax poetic about how it is engaging to avoid drift by holding onto powerful abilities instead of using them, but to me it\\'s just annoying gameplay.

...The fact that it is being called a puzzle just means it is bad objectively. Have you heard of stockholm syndrome?

First of all, I want to make myself really clear lol. You are allowed to like the changes as much as you want. I cannot take that away from you nor do I even want to. In fact, good for you for liking the new changes.

I speak only for my own concerns, any mention of others regarding a shared opinion is simply an observation.

However, you ask what is seemingly disingenous? Well the fact that you intentionally oversimplify core DRG mechanics, ignore when people point out nuances to its gameplay. You go out of your way to shoot down other peoples opinions just because theyre not your own so you can write this contrived narrative of whiners be whining and that you're some god sent intelectual who knows the ONLY way something should be enjoyed. New flash, People are allowed to like jobs for subjective reasons just as much as you are.

My subjective concerns are my own. Far be it from me to lecture you or anyone else on what you should or shouldn't like. But as a long time fan of DRG and someone who plays it in the highest levels of content (not bragging just making a point that im not talking out of my backside) Some of the conclusions you have made about the core kit of DRG are objectively wrong.

That's also not all. You also go and intentionally mischaracterise what people are saying to the point where its unclear whether you are familiar with how the job works or whether you do and youre just doubling down on the ignorance so you can justify your views of the job. Again, youre allowed to like the job and you dont need to justify it to me or anyone else. Just please dont do the who "uhhh" duhh thing with sentences like "Being able to adjust the rotation by not using abilities at certain times and saying that it doesnt drift is like uhh... no job has drift then" Thats not what I said at all, and anyone familiar with the nuances to DRG can see this. Its Ironic that you're doing the "duhh" routine to imply I'm mentally challenged not to see this "obvious" gotcha moment when in reality you have to really make an effort to read what I said with an "uhhh duhh" set of lenses to think thats what I meant.

At the end of the day we're both fans of the game and we both in our own way want for the game to be as enjoyable for our respective selves as possible. You have your option and I have mine. All there is to it is to agree to disagree.

[HikariKurosawa]

snip

There is nothing contrived about what I am saying though. It's all based on valid criticisms and issues with the rotation's natural flow. The only thing contrived is the rotation you're trying to defend. Which is fine, you're allowed to like contrived rotations. You're allowed to appreciate things that don't naturally work out the way they should. You're allowed to enjoy making unnatural adjustments that come at the expense of using your full power kit to "make it work" in an optimal way.

Personally I just think it is bad design. It's not really an argument. I am stating my point, you're huffing and puffing about things without actually defending your position or elaborating on what makes it good. It really just seems like stockholm syndrome. You're used to the adjustments you've had to make to make dragoon work, and it makes sense to you because you've developed a contrived process around compensating for the job's objectively poor design(I say it is objective because it doesn't line up naturally, this is what objective means).

In the end though, I get my option and you lose yours. If you want to huff and puff about it that's okay. I am just expanding on why I think it is good because 1) I want the devs to feel validated, 2) people like you could gain from the perspective of the other side since you've already lost your contrived rotations.

[Reldhir]

There is nothing contrived about what I am saying though. It's all based on valid criticisms and issues with the rotation's natural flow. The only thing contrived is the rotation you're trying to defend. Which is fine, you're allowed to like contrived rotations. You're allowed to appreciate things that don't naturally work out the way they should. You're allowed to enjoy making unnatural adjustments that come at the expense of using your full power kit to "make it work" in an optimal way.

Personally I just think it is bad design. It's not really an argument. I am stating my point, you're huffing and puffing about things without actually defending your position or elaborating on what makes it good. It really just seems like stockholm syndrome. You're used to the adjustments you've had to make to make dragoon work, and it makes sense to you because you've developed a contrived process around compensating for the job's objectively poor design(I say it is objective because it doesn't line up naturally, this is what objective means).

In the end though, I get my option and you lose yours. If you want to huff and puff about it that's okay. I am just expanding on why I think it is good because 1) I want the devs to feel validated, 2) people like you could gain from the perspective of the other side since you've already lost your contrived rotations.

Here we go again...you really are determined to stick to this narrative arnt you? People have eyes and can see this really weak attempt at mischaracterising peoples concerns. Who are you trying to fool lol sigh... anyway. Good for you bud :P

[HikariKurosawa]

Here we go again...you really are determined to stick to this narrative arnt you? People have eyes and can see this really weak attempt at mischaracterising peoples concerns. Who are you trying to fool lol sigh... anyway. Good for you bud :P

Go on then, characterize your concerns. All I read is "change bad, contrived rotation good".

At the end of the day, it's all subjective you're right. I'm not mischaracterizing your concerns either, you're just not saying much at all. Calling it "elegant" or "nuanced" or whatever doesn't actually say anything. You have to use facts and logic, not just complimentary words.

[Reldhir]

Go on then, characterize your concerns. All I read is "change bad, contrived rotation good".

Mmmmmmmmmmm... alright I\\'ll bite. DRG as it stands does NOT drift when you play it correctly. When you say silly things like "at the expense of your full power kit" thats just objectively wrong. You play the job correctly you dont lose anything. You hit everything when you need the nuance of the kit is that you ARE able to hit everything and not have to hold skills. This new kit means for fights like top you will literally have to not hit a button because it will be wasted at the end of a phase. Am I making myself clear here? You say the current kit means you have to hold stuff. If you\\'re doing that, youre not playing the job correctly. I really don\\'t want to call people out like they dont know how the job works but when you make arguments like that its clear you dont know how the job works.

There is no half baked compromise to optimising DRG the issue with it is that its very strict with the accuracy in which you have to push your buttons so that they don\\'t misallign and "drift" for new or inexperienced players, you start off by learning the "optimal" rotation but thats a misnomer. Its only optimal in a vacuum or on a training dummy with no mechanics. Its our start but not how we play it in a real fight. Optimisation. The puzzle aspect that you so seemingly detest is figuring out how to mod the DRG kit, so you can take that "optimal" training dummy rotation and tweek and modify it so to fits to specific encounters. These rotations are unique to every single encounter at the high end. Yes of course they follow similar rules but you cant go into DSR hitting the exact same buttons as you do in TOP. It doesn\\'t work like that. And let me be very clear, this does not mean holding not pushing your best buttons. This means figuring out how to move your best buttons to the correct points in the fight WITHOUT losing anything. Do you really thing people at the highest level are just taking their hands off the keyboard/controller when they say hold your burst?

This new rotation on the other hand (from what we can see and HENCE our concern) is that there is no ability to tweek and mod and bend our rotation. We simply hit our buttons or not. We are on or we are off, there is no flexibility no adaptability to the kit (from what we can see) Again, this could change when the full kit is released we dont know. But this is what it looks like so far.

[Reldhir]

Infact, I see you have SAM as a main job so let me use samurai as an example EVERYONE who did TOP can agree on. SAM has exactly the type of inflexible, unadaptable kit im worried DRG has become. On paper/on a dummy SAM is absolute fire for damage. But in TOP it was really handicapped (early on anyway) it\\'s on or off only kit meant it was incredibly inefficient and could never truely shine where it needed to given the phase design of TOP. This is exactly what players who are super into DRG are worried about happening to this job.

Im sorry if that sounds condensending but I don\\'t know how else to explain to someone so willfully ignorant of the kit.

Now what im NOT saying is that you\\'re not allowed to want a simplified kit despite that, that youre not allowed to find optimisation tedious and unfun, that youre not allowed to find the simple on/off damage fun and better. Great you are allowed that, I even understand if thats where SE is taking things (has been taking things) but theres a huge chasm between not liking something because its broken, not liking something because its too hard and most definately not liking something because you dont understand how it works

If you\\'re going to critisize the existing kit thats absolutely fine. But just get the kit right first.

(Lol had to make 2 posts because my word vomit was too long)

[HikariKurosawa]

Do you really thing people at the highest level are just taking their hands off the keyboard/controller when they say hold your burst?.

No, I think they are not using either jump/mirage dive, or geirskogul to save LotD for burst phase. You act like it is rocket science to play in a contrived way. More stardiver, more nastrond, more going all out, this is what dawntrail achieves. This is good. You want to hold back for key moments and have the game's encounter design and job power values balanced around holding back your rotation for key moments. It's okay to like that, it's subjective to like that, personally I don't like that. I like going all out with my rotation and letting the power flow as it should.

You're also saying two conflicting things. On one hand you say "You play the job correctly you dont lose anything. You hit everything when you need the nuance of the kit is that you ARE able to hit everything and not have to hold skills." then in the next paragraph you say "Yes of course they follow similar rules but you cant go into DSR hitting the exact same buttons as you do in TOP."

At the end of the day, your style of gameplay either relies on reading an encounter guide to know how your rotation should flow, or playing your job suboptimally enough times to memorize the encounter's flow and adjust accordingly. It's not a very heroic execution. It's contrived and ends up being pedantic. Having it your way, means the encounters will never be satisfying until you read a guide or play them enough times to actually execute properly. How many times should I be doing an encounter before I can play my job correctly in it?

I get why you enjoy your preferred way of job design, but it's just not very good in my eyes.

[Reldhir]

No, I think they are not using either jump/mirage dive, or geirskogul to save LotD for burst phase. You act like it is rocket science to play in a contrived way. More stardiver, more nastrond, more going all out, this is what dawntrail achieves. This is good. You want to hold back for key moments and have the game's encounter design and job power values balanced around holding back your rotation for key moments. It's okay to like that, it's subjective to like that, personally I don't like that. I like going all out with my rotation and letting the power flow as it should.

You're also saying two conflicting things. On one hand you say "You play the job correctly you dont lose anything. You hit everything when you need the nuance of the kit is that you ARE able to hit everything and not have to hold skills." then in the next paragraph you say "Yes of course they follow similar rules but you cant go into DSR hitting the exact same buttons as you do in TOP."

Okay so this statement about not using jump/mirage dive or gierskogul? Is 100%, utterly, emphatically wrong. The two eye system is exactly what allows us to hit all these buttons without triggering life of the dragon. Lets paint a picture, you are nearing the end of a damage phase and you have 1 eye in the pocket and jump/gierskogul are about to come off cooldown. the training dummy rotation doesnt teach us to deal with this so lets run through it.

Scenario 1: We follow the rotation we should be hitting jump > mirage > gierksogul right? then we enter life of the dragon but POOF boss jumps away and we're left twiddling our thumbs with nothing to use nastrond and star diver on yay! NOPE WRONG!

Scenario 2: We follow the rotation we hit jump > mirage but then OOP we dont want to enter Life of the Dragon so we hold it and let that shiny lit up button just hang out on our hotbar... woo holding skills! ALSO NOPERS!

Scenario 3: Ahhh okay bigbrain lets hit jump... BUT instead of hitting mirage dive and gaining an eye we skip it and just hit gierskogul. That way we get to use gierskogul and we dont go into life phase right? NOPEEEEE but we're getting somewhere now...

Scenario 4 We hit jump, mirage dive becomes active, but we dont hit it... YET, we hit gierskogul FIRST then mirage after... and look at that ALL buttons pressed, nothing held, we dont go into life of the dragon, we start the next phase with 2 eyes. Huzzah!

Rocket science? I think not, if you've been playing DRG long enough decisions like this are second nature. That doesnt mean it doesnt have its uses, doesnt mean its not part of the optimisation puzzle. When you say im saying conflicting things, I'm not. I meant exactly what I said, you can hit all your buttons AND you are able to hold life of the dragon. This is the beauty of the 2 eye system. All that supposed fluff and what was it..? waxing poetic? there was a very practical application to it, not that shallow fluff you seemed to imply it was.