Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

[Reldhir]

or playing your job suboptimally enough times to memorize the encounter's flow and adjust accordingly. It's not a very heroic execution. It's contrived and ends up being pedantic. Having it your way, means the encounters will never be satisfying until you read a guide or play them enough times to actually execute properly. How many times should I be doing an encounter before I can play my job correctly in it?

I get why you enjoy your preferred way of job design, but it's just not very good in my eyes.

What you just described... is the essence of prog in an encounter... playing suboptimally enough times to memorise the encounters flow... yes...? exactly??? does this not apply to every challenge we strive to overcome??? we're bad and we struggle at it till we learn how to be good at it???? I am incredibly confused by what point you're trying to make.

*I realise I'm becoming condescending simply for the sake of being condescending, I apologise for that. I won't edit how I phrased it so as to attempt to hide being a jerk, but I do want to say I've gone too far with how I've phrased things. Gomen *

[HikariKurosawa]

What you just described... is the essence of prog in an encounter... playing suboptimally enough times to memorise the encounters flow... yes...? exactly??? does this not apply to every challenge we strive to overcome??? we're bad and we struggle at it till we learn how to be good at it???? I am incredibly confused by what point you're trying to make.

*I realise I'm becoming condescending simply for the sake of being condescending, I apologise for that. I won't edit how I phrased it so as to attempt to hide being a jerk, but I do want to say I've gone too far with how I've phrased things. Gomen *

Oh don't worry about it at all. I just don't think the difficulty should come in how you should tweak your rotation to suit the specific encounter but from the encounter's mechanics itself. You want more of an interplay between job execution and encounter mechanics, I want job execution to be its own thing that doesn't change encounter to encounter with all the variable difficulty coming from the encounter itself. This enables the developers to focus entirely on encounter mechanics and minimizes how much they have to consider job interactions with the mechanics in the encounter.

There is no right answer, but I think I know what the devs want and I appreciate the direction the game is heading in and what it will mean for encounter design. It's okay to like something different, but in the end if you want to be happy you'll have to let go of your attachments to your own ideals. The happiest gamers are the ones that embrace the dev's vision. It's their game after all, not yours.

If you are good at your job, going forward you will be able to experience encounters where you just ace every mechanic and play your rotation cleanly. This will feel extremely satisfying. This doesn't occur in the way you want the game to be designed because your ideal depends on pre-requisite knowledge of the encounter mechanics.

[Reldhir]

Oh don't worry about it at all. I just don't think the difficulty should come in how you should tweak your rotation to suit the specific encounter but from the encounter's mechanics itself. You want more of an interplay between job execution and encounter mechanics, I want job execution to be its own thing that doesn't change encounter to encounter with all the variable difficulty coming from the encounter itself. This enables the developers to focus entirely on encounter mechanics and minimizes how much they have to consider job interactions with the mechanics in the encounter.

There is no right answer, but I think I know what the devs want and I appreciate the direction the game is heading in and what it will mean for encounter design. It's okay to like something different, but in the end if you want to be happy you'll have to let go of your attachments to your own ideals. The happiest gamers are the ones that embrace the dev's vision. It's their game after all, not yours.

I can respect that, and make no mistake I'm still very much a fan of the game, ill still play DRG in its new iteration, but being such a diehard fan of the job meant I got a little twitchy when I read the discrepancies in how the existing kit was being described and maybe let that i dunno... passion? for lack of a better word get the better of me :P

[HikariKurosawa]

I can respect that, and make no mistake I'm still very much a fan of the game, ill still play DRG in its new iteration, but being such a diehard fan of the job meant I got a little twitchy when I read the discrepancies in how the existing kit was being described and maybe let that i dunno... passion? for lack of a better word get the better of me :P

I just like using nastrond and stardiver. I couldn't care less about parsing or anything like that. I think the less you care about parsing and reducing the game to how many numbers you can put out, the more you will care about how often you are using animations like nastrond and stardiver. I have damage numbers turned off and would never use an addon. I couldn't even care less about gear upgrades because it makes no difference to my experience of the game. It's just a necessary means of progression to access higher level content. My experience of playing the job stays the same regardless.

I think it's much more enjoyable to play the game for animations than it is to play for damage potential, because the game has extremely satisfying animations. It's a waste for the optimal play to hold back how frequently we are seeing these animations just to increase something like a parse that shouldn't even be happening to begin with. It's against ToS to parse after all.

If you try to shift the definition of optimal enjoyment to coming from seeing more satisfying animations more frequently rather than getting a better parse, you'll probably understand why I appreciate the dawntrail changes.

[Reldhir]

I just like using nastrond and stardiver. I couldn't care less about parsing or anything like that. I think the less you care about parsing and reducing the game to how many numbers you can put out, the more you will care about how often you are using animations like nastrond and stardiver. I have damage numbers turned off and would never use an addon. I couldn't even care less about gear upgrades because it makes no difference to my experience of the game. It's just a necessary means of progression to access higher level content. My experience of playing the job stays the same regardless.

I think it's much more enjoyable to play the game for animations than it is to play for damage potential, because the game has extremely satisfying animations. It's a waste for the optimal play to hold back how frequently we are seeing these animations just to increase something like a parse that shouldn't even be happening to begin with. It's against ToS to parse after all.

If you try to shift the definition of optimal enjoyment to coming from seeing more satisfying animations more frequently rather than getting a better parse, you'll probably understand why I appreciate the dawntrail changes.

It's not just about the barse (though for a lot of people it is) Ultimate encounters and even Savage raids (especially early on) really do require you to nickle and dime your dps, its not strictly about vanity. If you don't min max your dps you are getting absolutely no where in new* high end content (eventually new food and gear come in so even at the ultimate level, dps requirements are alleviated) The joke about UWU and UCOB being harder in 2017 is funny but true pretty much because dps checks were so much harder to clear at the time.

And yes, I totally understand why you like the changes, I even said this is great for new or casual players and I mean that genuinely. It just stings a little at the other end of the spectrum when we see our toys being taken away. My point was that we're not just being whiners just to whine, that we have valid reasons and can point to practical applications of the concerns we have.

[HikariKurosawa]

It's not just about the barse (though for a lot of people it is) Ultimate encounters and even Savage raids (especially early on) really do require you to nickle and dime your dps, its not strictly about vanity. If you don't min max your dps you are getting absolutely no where in new* high end content (eventually new food and gear come in so even at the ultimate level, dps requirements are alleviated) The joke about UWU and UCOB being harder in 2017 is funny but true pretty much because dps checks were so much harder to clear at the time.

And yes, I totally understand why you like the changes, I even said this is great for new or casual players and I mean that genuinely. It just stings a little at the other end of the spectrum when we see our toys being taken away. My point was that we're not just being whiners just to whine, that we have valid reasons and can point to practical applications of the concerns we have.

For sure, but it's going to be balanced around the new job design going forward so it's not going to be an issue. It will just mean people have to read less guides and spend more time learning in game. Which is good. You don't get player participation actively happening from people reading or watching guides in their free time. You get it by having them logged in playing the game actively. It's going to be more straight forward to min/max your dps now and it's going to happen sooner, so like I said, the difficulty will be coming from adapting to the mechanics themselves rather than adapting your job timing to the mechanics. I'm not saying the mechanics are currently trivial, but they're going to be harder because job design is going to be more streamlined.

I never tried to imply that your reasoning for being upset was invalid. I am just expressing a differing opinion. Like you said, enjoyment of a video game is subjective.

[ZiraZ]

You don't need to use plugins to know you're doing well on current DRG, you don't need plugins telling you when you successfully found a way to sneak that mirage dive before the boss phased away without losing dps elsewhere, that was one of the beauties of Eyes, direct visual pat in the back telling you did good. Ironically after the eye removal it will all come down to what the numbers say.

One of the best feelings in the game, the first highly anticipated 2min DRG burst won't exist anymore, opener and all evens will be virtually the same and will blur in the progging, I assume something like P3S would feel very mediocre in DT and might even get less potential see less animations in the fight.
If anything these changes are gonna lead down the community into unfun optimizations becoming more of the norm like swing timers have started to pop up in discords, or having dedicated members slow down dps on purpose becoming more and more common, decimal gaming and generally the job feeling like you're playing it wrong even when you're not, like a lot of jobs do on fights like TOP.
All while SE continues their batshit insane boss mechanics arms race proliferation which... you've guessed it, keeps promoting 3rd party tools as the norm more and more.

[HikariKurosawa]

You don't need to use plugins to know you're doing well on current DRG, you don't need plugins telling you when you successfully found a way to sneak that mirage dive before the boss phased away without losing dps elsewhere, that was one of the beauties of Eyes, direct visual pat in the back telling you did good. Ironically after the eye removal it will all come down to what the numbers say.

One of the best feelings in the game, the first highly anticipated 2min DRG burst won't exist anymore, opener and all evens will be virtually the same and will blur in the progging, I assume something like P3S would feel very mediocre in DT and might even get less potential see less animations in the fight.
If anything these changes are gonna lead down the community into unfun optimizations becoming more of the norm like swing timers have started to pop up in discords, or having dedicated members slow down dps on purpose becoming more and more common, decimal gaming and generally the job feeling like you're playing it wrong even when you're not, like a lot of jobs do on fights like TOP.
All while SE continues their batshit insane boss mechanics arms race proliferation which... you've guessed it, keeps promoting 3rd party tools as the norm more and more.

I don't see why the developers should care about how cheaters ruin their game experience with addons lol. Pander to the people who play the game as intended without breaking ToS, not the cheaters who cry about trivialized content while leaning on cheats as hard as possible.

[ZiraZ]

I don't see why the developers should care about how cheaters ruin their game experience with addons lol. Pander to the people who play the game as intended without breaking ToS, not the cheaters who cry about trivialized content while leaning on cheats as hard as possible.

They're not pandering to cheaters and nobody is expecting they do, all they're doing is moving friction from jobs to bosses and people use addons to get it over with because it's too much encounter friction, the exact same thing happened in WoW until Blizzard used their anticheat to properly ban certain plugins, problem is SE has no anticheat and probably never will. So the insane mechanic proliferation continues.

as for the numbers thing, I can barely tell which number is which but I always do keep an eye for that Stardiver and Heaven's Thrust crit because it feels really good to see the animations and get a good hit with it, the first 2 min burst felt like uncorking a champagne bottle and watching your character go apeshit with double weaves and jumps. it absolutely made up for having no life on opener to me and I'm gonna miss it a lot.

[Keichi]

Scenario 4 We hit jump, mirage dive becomes active, but we dont hit it... YET, we hit gierskogul FIRST then mirage after... and look at that ALL buttons pressed, nothing held, we dont go into life of the dragon, we start the next phase with 2 eyes. Huzzah!

The easier combo would be: Geirs, jump, mirage.
With that are you not risking to enter LotD unwanted and dont need to jump over on skill.

Aside of that:
Whe dont know the CD yet (only, that its duration is shorter) and dont know, if whe need the full combo or only Geirs (in the Clip was all 3 skill used, some says, whe would only need Geirs), but, it looks like, that whe could enter it now more often.

Shouldnt it be better, to use it around all 30 seconds, instant of only 1-2 times for each 1-2 minutes?

The main consens is, that it should be used in the buff window (who could even be longer now). And that it is holded back, if whe are outside of the buff window or, if whe knows, that the Boss enter a phase, where whe can not do dmg (what mean, that whe need to know the fight first).

But, that Holding back thing could be meaningless, if whe are truly able to enter lotd now more often as before.

In your examples:
To enter it, when the Boss is jumping away is bad. That is right. But, should whe be able to enter it again, after the Boss comes back, would it be the right call, to use Lotd first. Set up stardive and maybe 1 nastrond. Have than to wait until the phase ends and can than go into lotd again directly after that.

In that scenario would it becomes meaningless to hold back.
Like, with the blm.
The blm is a class, who practicly has no Set up. He can go full power from the start and has a high constant dmg (as long as he is able to cast), with a short burst moment with Mana Front (especially now, when it looks like to fill now all ressources).
The drg could be changed to a similary role, that he has now a constant dmg. Instant of a burst Mode (whe are missing that kind of meele yet, all meeles need first to build up something, or, have limited ressources of there more powerfull attacks, the same with the caster, who even has to fill up something first or has limited ressources, except the blm, who has only his cd for his speeding up spells).

Or have data miner allready found things about the new drg?